But that is contradicted by Jesus bearing false witness by going to a feast even though he said he wasn't going. He also taught in secret despite denying doing that. Disrepected his mother, stole a donkey, and broke the sabbath a lot.
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
drseinfeld
|
DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? |
Lead | ||
|
JOHN 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
But that is contradicted by Jesus bearing false witness by going to a feast even though he said he wasn't going. He also taught in secret despite denying doing that. Disrepected his mother, stole a donkey, and broke the sabbath a lot. |
||||
|
|
||||
Iznomneak |
Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | #1 | ||
|
I wouldn't be surprized if Jesus and his posse used to boil kids in mother's milk either - just to piss off the old man.
with Science Fiction, all things are possible |
||||
|
|
||||
Starlight |
Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | #2 | ||
|
give the passages, and you can be sure they will be answered!
Namaste |
||||
|
|
||||
drseinfeld |
Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | #3 | ||
|
Namaste? Isn't that a hindu greeting? I have to get some sleep now, but I will get those verses for you Friday (May 12)
evening. I will give a quick summary for now.He healed on the sabbath, I think a withered hand. He told his mom "Woman, what do I have to do with you?" He told his disciples to steal a donkey for him. |
||||
|
|
||||
Yark Hutprancer |
Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | #4 | ||
|
There is a specific instance where he had his troops go get food from someone else's farm without asking. When confronted for his behavior, he said some nonsense about no longer being bound by the Old Testament law.
Besides, Christians will only argue that since he was god, he has the right to do whatever the hell he wants. "If I were God, and I made myself into a regular ol' person, I would have written down the stuff I said myself. I would have had people there with me taking notes. I wouldn't rely on people from the generation after my death to get the story right." - i would be an astronaut on the SAB Message Board |
||||
|
|
||||
Starlight |
How Rude!? | #5 | ||
|
How Rude!?
by Eric Lyons, M.Min. Imagine your mother asking you to do something for a neighbor, and you responding to her by saying, Woman, what does that have to do with me? If your mother is anything like mine, she probably would have given you the look (among other things) as she pondered how her son could be so rude. Responding to a mothers (or any womans) request in twenty-first-century America with the refrain, Woman, sounds impolite and offensive. Furthermore, a Christian, who is commanded to honor his father and mother (Ephesians 6:2), would be out of line in most situations when using such an expression while talking directly to his mother. In light of the ill-mannered use of the word woman in certain contexts today, some question how Jesus could have spoken to His mother 2,000 years ago using this term without breaking the commandment to [h]onor your father and your mother (Exodus 20:12; cf. Matthew 15:4; Matthew 5:17-20). When Jesus, His disciples, and His mother were at the wedding in Cana of Galilee where there was a depletion of wine, Mary said to Jesus, They have no wine (John 2:3). Jesus then responded to his mother, saying, Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come (John 2:4). Notice what one skeptic has written regarding what Jesus said in this verse. In Matt. 15:4 he [JesusEL] told people to Honor thy father and thy mother; yet, he was one of the first to ignore his own maxim by saying to his mother in John 4:24, Woman, what have I to do with thee? (McKinsey, 1995, p. 44). Imagine someone talking to his own mother is such a disrespectful manner and addressing her by such an impersonal noun as woman. Talk about an insolent offspring! (1995, p. 134). Jesus needs to practice some parental respect (2000, p. 251). Apparently Jesus love escaped him (n.d., Jesus). Why was Jesus disrespectful of his mother? In John 2:4, Jesus uses the same words with his mother that demons use when they meet Jesus. Surely the son of God knew that Mary had the blessing of the Father, didnt he, (and she was the mother of GodEd.) not to mention the fact that the son of God would never be rude? (n.d., Problems, parenthetical comment in orig.). As one can see, Mr. McKinsey is adamant that Jesus erred. He used such words to describe Jesus as disrespectful, insolent, unloving, and rude. Is he correct? As with most Bible critics, Mr. McKinsey is guilty of judging Jesus words by what is common in twenty-first-century English vernacular, rather than putting Jesus comments in its proper first-century setting. It was not rude or inappropriate for a man in the first century to speak to a lady by saying, Woman (gunai). This was a highly respectful and affectionate mode of address (Vincent, 1997) with no idea of censure (Robertson, 1932, p. 34). The New International Version correctly captures the meaning of this word in John 2:4: Dear woman, why do you involve me? (NIV, emp. added). Jesus used this word when complimenting the Syrophoenician womans great faith (Matthew 15:2 As to why Jesus used the term woman (gunai) instead of mother (meetros) when speaking to Mary (which even in first-century Hebrew and Greek cultures was an unusual way to address ones mother), Leon Morris noted that Jesus most likely was indicating that there is a new relationship between them as he enters his public ministry. Evidently Mary thought of the intimate relations of the home at Nazareth as persisting. But Jesus in his public ministry was not only or primarily the son of Mary, but the Son of Man who was to bring the realities of heaven to people on earth (1:51). A new relationship was established (Morris, 1995, p. 159). R.C.H. Lenski added: [W]hile Mary will forever remain his [JesusEL] mother, in his calling Jesus knows no mother or earthly relative, he is their Lord and Savior as well as of all men. The common earthly relation is swallowed up in the divine (1961, p. 189). It seems best to conclude that Jesus was simply informing His mother in a loving-yet-firm manner that as He began performing miracles for the purpose of proving His deity and the divine origin of His message (see Miller, 2003, pp. 17-23), His relationship to His mother was about to change. Finally, the point also must be stressed that honoring fathers and mothers does not mean that a son or daughter never can correct his or her parents. Correction and honor are no more opposites than correction and love. One of the greatest ways parents disclose their love to their children is by correcting them when they make mistakes. Similarly, one of the ways in which a mature son might honor his parents is by taking them aside when they have erred, and lovingly pointing out their mistake or oversight in a certain matter. How much more honorable would this action be than to take no action and allow them to continue in a path of error without informing them of such. We must keep in mind that even though Mary was a great woman who found favor with God (Luke 1:30), she was not perfect (cf. Romans 3:10,23). She was not God, nor the mother of God (viz., she did not originate Jesus or bring Him into existence). But, she was the one chosen to carry the Son of God in her womb. Who better to correct any misunderstanding she may had had than this Son? REFERENCES Clarke, Adam (1996), Adam Clarkes Commentary (Electronic Database: Biblesoft). Lenski, R.C.H. (1961), The Interpretation of the St. Johns Gospel (Minneapolis, MN: Augsburg). McKinsey, C. Dennis (no date), Jesus, Imperfect Beacon, Biblical Errancy [On-line], URL: members.aol.com/ckbloomfl...issref113. McKinsey, C. Dennis (no date), Problems with the Credentials and Character of Jesus, Biblical Errancy [On-line], URL: mywebpages.comcast.net/er...ss190.htm. McKinsey, C. Dennis (1995), The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy (Amherst, NY: Prometheus). McKinsey, C. Dennis (2000), Biblical Errancy (Amherst, NY: Prometheus). Miller, Dave (2003), Modern-day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation, Reason & Revelation, 23:17-24, March. Morris, Leon (1995), The Gospel According to St. John (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans), revised edition. Robertson, A.T. (1932), Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman). Vincent, Marvin R. (1997), Word Studies in the New Testament (Electronic Database: Biblesoft). |
||||
|
|
||||
Starlight |
Two answers for the price of one | #6 | ||
|
Israelite Plundering and a Missing Donkey
by Eric Lyons, M.Min. Numerous passages of Scripture teacheither explicitly or implicitlyabout the sinfulness of thievery. One of the Ten Commandments that God gave to Israel was: You shall not steal (Exodus 20:15). In the book of Leviticus, one can read where the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say to them You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. You shall not cheat your neighbor, nor rob him (19:1-2,11,13). If a thief was found breaking into a house and was struck so that he died, the old law stated that there would be no guilt for his bloodshed (Exodus 22:2). Under the new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote to the church at Ephesus, saying, Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need (4:2 Skeptics, however, question the consistency of the above Bible verses when compared to other passages of Scripture, which they feel often are overlooked in a discussion on the biblical view of thievery. One of these alleged inconsistencies is found in the book of Exodus, and centers on how the Israelites plundered the Egyptians during the Exodus. When God spoke to Moses at the burning bush about the Exodus from Egypt, He said: It shall be, when you go, that you shall not go empty-handed. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor, namely, of her who dwells near her house, articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing; and you shall put them on your sons and on your daughters. So you shall plunder the Egyptians (Exodus 3:21-22, emp. added). Then, as the Exodus became a reality, the Bible tells how the children of Israel had done according to the word of Mosesand plundered the Egyptians (Exodus 12:35-36, emp. added). According to skeptic Steve Wells, God tells the Hebrew women to break the eighth commandmentand encourages the Israelites to steal from the Egyptians (2001). A second Bible story frequently used by skeptics in defense of their belief in the errancy of Scripture is that of Jesus disciples allegedly stealing a donkey and a colt. According to the gospel of Matthew, before entering Jerusalem during the final week of His life, Jesus instructed His disciples, saying, Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Loose them and bring them to Me. And if anyone says anything to you, you shall say, The Lord has need of them, and immediately he will send them (Matthew 21:1-3). Luke added: So those who were sent went their way and found it just as He had said to them. But as they were loosing the colt, the owners of it said to them, Why are you loosing the colt? And they said, The Lord has need of him. Then they brought him to Jesus (Luke 19:32-35). Regarding this story, Dennis McKinsey asked: Are we to believe this isnt theft? Imagine seeing a stranger driving your car away while claiming the lord needed it (1985, p. 1). Another infidel by the name of Dan Barker commented on this passage in his book, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist, saying, I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing (1992, p. 166). Did Jesus really encourage His disciples to steal a donkey and a colt? And what about the Israelites plundering the Egyptians? Can these passages be explained logically in light of the numerous statements throughout Scripture that clearly condemn thievery? A PROPER PLUNDERING, OR AN UNHOLY HEIST? Concerning the Israelites plundering of the Egyptians, the Bible student first needs to recognize that Exodus 3:22 is a reconfirmation of a prophecy made centuries earlier when God spoke to Abraham, saying, Your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation [EgyptEL] whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions (Genesis 15:13-14, emp. added). Next, the honest Bible reader must concede that the Israelites plundering was not comparable to the forceful plundering that a mighty army might undertake. The kind of plundering done by the Israelites is described within the text. God told Moses, I will give this people [the IsraelitesEL] favor in the sight of the Egyptians. But every woman shall ask of her neighbor, namely, of her who dwells near her house, articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing; and you shall put them on your sons and on your daughters (Exodus 3:21-22). When it finally came time for the Exodus, the texts states: Now the children of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, and they had asked from the Egyptians articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing. And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they granted them what they requested. Thus they plundered the Egyptians (Exodus 12:35-36, emp. added). Who but a biased skeptic would call this stealing? The actual circumstances were such that the Israelites merely requested various articles, which were then granted by the Egyptians. The plundering described in the book of Exodus was nothing more than receiving that for which the Israelites asked. [NOTE: The word plundered in these two passages is not the normal Hebrew term used for what soldiers do to the enemy at the conclusion of a battle. In Exodus, the word plundered (from the Hebrew word natsal) is used figuratively to mean that the Israelites accomplished the same thing as if they had taken them in battledue to the extenuating circumstances of the plagues motivating the Egyptians to fear the Israelites and their God (see Archer, 1982, p. 110).] But suppose for a moment that the Israelites had plundered the Egyptians (at the Lords command), in the sense that they took various possessions by force. Would this have been unjust? Surely not, since Jehovah recognized that the Israelites had provided slave labor for the Egyptians for many years. [NOTE: The descendants of Jacob (Israel) had been in Egypt for more than 200 years.] During this time, the Egyptians afflicted them with burdens and made them serve with rigor (Exodus 1:11,13). Pharaoh made their lives bitter with hard bondage (1:14), and, upon seeing the tremendous growth of the Israelites, even commanded that every son born of the Israelites be killed (1:22). In reality, the plundering that took place at the end of Israels stay in Egypt (even had it been by force at the command of God), was a rather small compensation for the many years of agonizing slave labor they provided for the Egyptians. WERE JESUS DISCIPLES COLT CROOKS? Even if the skeptic is somewhat pacified by the above explanation of the Israelites plundering, he likely will still want to know about the case in the New Testament of Jesus instructing two of His disciples to go into a village, locate a donkey and a colt, and to bring them back to Him. Are we to believe this isnt theft? asked Dennis McKinsey (1985, p. 1). Allegedly, Jesus told people to take a coltwithout the owners permission. And that, says McKinsey, is commonly known as stealing (2000, p. 236). Question: If I e-mailed my wife and asked her to walk to a neighbors house and pick up his truck so that I could use it to haul an old furnace to the junkyard, would someone who read this same e-mail (perhaps finding a hard copy of it crumpled up in the trash) be justified in concluding that I asked my wife to steal the truck? Certainly not. Since the e-mail had no other information in it than the request to my wife concerning a neighbors truck, a person reading the note would have to have to have access to additional information in order to come to the conclusion that my wife and I were guilty of theft. This person may be ignorant of the fact that I had prearranged such a pick-up with my neighbor the previous day. Or, perhaps my neighbor had told me at some earlier time that I could use his truck whenever I needed it. What Mr. McKinsey and other skeptics never seem to take into consideration in their interpretation of Scripture is that the Bible does not record every single detail of every event it mentions (cf. John 21:25). The Bible was not intended to be a chronological timeline citing every detail about the lives of all of the men and women mentioned within it. The New Testament book of Acts covers a period of about 30 years, but it actually is only about some of the acts of some of the early Christians. There were many more things that Paul, Peter, Silas, Luke, and other first-century Christians did that are not recorded therein. For example, Paul spent three years in Arabia and Damascus after his conversion (Galatians 1:16-1 The case of Jesus telling His disciples to go locate the donkey and colt does not prove thievery, any more than Jesus disciples inquiring about and occupying an upper room makes them trespassers (cf. Mark 14:13-15). When sending His two disciples to get the requested animals, Jesus told them exactly where to go and what to say, as if He already knew the circumstances under which the donkey and colt were available. Jesus may very well have prearranged for the use of the donkeys. Neither Mr. McKinsey nor any other skeptic can prove otherwise. Similar to how I am not obligated to go home from work every night and rehearse to my wife everything I did each hour at work, the Bible is not obligated to fill in every detail of every event, including the one regarding the attainment of two donkeys. No contradiction or charge of wrong is legitimate if unrelated circumstantial details may be postulated that account for explicit information that is given. Furthermore, the innocence of Jesus and His disciples is reinforced by the fact that the disciples were able to leave with the donkeys. Had the disciples really been stealing the animals, one would think that the owners would not have allowed such to happen. Also, nothing is said in the text about what happened to the animals after Jesus road them into Jerusalem. For all we know, Jesus disciples could have immediately taken the animals back to their owners. CONCLUSION Skeptics who charge that the Bible contains contradictory teachings concerning the act of stealing have no firm ground on which to stand. The Israelites did not steal the Egyptians clothing and jewels, they asked for them, and the Egyptians granted them what they requested (Exodus 12:35-36). And until it can be proven that Jesus disciples took the donkeys by force (and without prior permission), justice demands that the accusations of guilt must be withdrawn. There is no justifiable contradiction here. Case closed! REFERENCES Archer, Gleason L. (1982), An Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (Grand Rapids: Zondervan). Barker, Dan (1992), Losing Faith in Faith (Madison, WI: Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc.). McKinsey, C. Dennis (1985), Commentary, Biblical Errancy, pp. 1-2, January. McKinsey, C. Dennis (2000), Biblical Errancy (Amherst, NY: Prometheus). Wells, Steve (2001), Skeptics Annotated Bible, [On-line], URL: www.Skepticsannotatedbible.com. |
||||
|
|
||||
Starlight |
Re: Two answers for the price of one | #7 | ||
|
John 18:20 Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together; I have said nothing secretly.
So many of you think Jesus lied here huh? Not really. Those who think this have misunderstood what He was saying. His statement is an exclusive one. He doesn't say "I've only ever taught in synagogues and temples" (to the exclusion of all other places.) He says "I've always taught in synagogues and temples." Which is true. He had also always taught openly in many other places. The word used here "always" means "consistently" and the problem arises when one tries to make it an exclusive statement. A common sense example would be: If I say "I always eat breakfast", this does not mean that I don't eat other meals too. |
||||
|
|
||||
Keith and Company |
Ah. Now we know. | #8 | ||
Quote:Nope. As i explained last time you were here, i've never even suggested any sort of dishonesty on Jesus' part. Nor Cap'n Ahab. Nor Tarzan. Nor John Carter of Mars. |
||||
|
|
||||
Yark Hutprancer |
Re: How Rude!? | #9 | ||
|
gawd, I have absolutely no desire to debate a bunch of copy and paste text...
"If I were God, and I made myself into a regular ol' person, I would have written down the stuff I said myself. I would have had people there with me taking notes. I wouldn't rely on people from the generation after my death to get the story right." - i would be an astronaut on the SAB Message Board |
||||
|
|
||||
| DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | 05/11/06 17:51:50 | drseinfeld |
| Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | 05/11/06 18:07:09 | Iznomneak |
| Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | 05/11/06 18:51:22 | Starlight |
| Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | 05/11/06 21:41:38 | drseinfeld |
| Re: DID JESUS KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? | 05/12/06 06:32:24 | Yark Hutprancer |
| How Rude!? | 05/12/06 16:32:19 | Starlight |
| Two answers for the price of one | 05/12/06 16:42:17 | Starlight |
| Re: Two answers for the price of one | 05/12/06 17:02:22 | Starlight |
| Ah. Now we know. | 05/12/06 17:06:34 | Keith and Company |
| Re: How Rude!? | 05/12/06 19:16:05 | Yark Hutprancer |