Proverbs 26:4-5 - Contradictions - All - The Skeptic's Annotated Bible Discussion Board - Message Board - Yuku

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YHeloThar	Proverbs 26:4-5		Lead	[-]
Posts: 5 09/09/07 19:54:50	Tags : None I think that this contradiction should be removed. I admit that the first half of Proverbs 26:4-5 do contradict each other, and all that is highlighted in each verse is the first halves. However, if you read each verse you will see that the ideas in each verse do not contradict. I would be happy if the people that run this sight review Proverbs 26:4-5 and I would like to hear what they think. Personally, I so not think that the verses as a whole contradict each other so I wanted to bring it to the attention of the people running the site because I think it should be changed. I am not looking to start a huge argument by posting this. I just think that this contradiction should be removed and I wanted it to be reviewed by the people who run this site. Of course, if this issue has been brought up before please tell me and disregard this post.
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Keith and Company	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4140 09/10/07 02:53:29	*Quote:* I admit that the first half of Proverbs 26:4-5 do contradict each other, and all that is highlighted in each verse is the first halves. The first halves are the parts that contradict. The last half are the reasons for the first half. *Quote:* However, if you read each verse you will see that the ideas in each verse do not contradict. Um, at what point do you think there's a verse that ties the two contradictions together and justifies answering and not answering a fool according to his folly? *Quote:* 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back. 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. 26:6 He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage. 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools. 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool. 26:9 As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouths of fools. 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors. 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. The only thing i can see is that maybe since 26:10 says that God will take care of giving fools what they deserve, then maybe in 4-5, you shouldn't answer a fool at ALL, because no matter what you do, because there's danger in both responses. But still, as you admit, 4 and 5 do contradict each other. And the justification of the two ideas isn't fully explained in a manner as clear as the contradiction. Like, if verse 6 had followed with 'therefore you should _____ a fool (according/Not according) to his folly.' I think the highlight is correct.
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YHeloThar	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 09/10/07 17:34:29	I think that my original argument was poorly stated, let me try again. I think that Proverbs 26:4-5 is not a contradiction, I think that it is a pair of contrasting statements. Essentially, I think that the verses contrast what happens when one would either address a fool according to his folly or not. I see Proverbs 26:4-5 as a pair of biblically worded if/then statements intended to contrast two courses of action. I wanted this contradiction to be reviewed because if these statements are simply contrasting two courses of action then there is not necessarily a contradiction with the message in either statement. I think that passages marked for contradiction should be marked because the ideas contained in the passages contradict not because the bible used a common literary technique to make a point.
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Keith and Company	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4140 09/10/07 17:56:13	*Quote:* Essentially, I think that the verses contrast what happens when one would either address a fool according to his folly or not. I don't see how that works. It's not a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' statement. It's saying DON'T, because this will happen. Followed immediately by DO, so that this doesn't happen. Okay, so a fan of The Books is facing a fool. Should he or shouldn't he answer that fool according to his folly? Either way, he's following an instruction from The Books. Of course, either way, he's also violating an instruction from The Books. *Quote:* I see Proverbs 26:4-5 as a pair of biblically worded if/then statements intended to contrast two courses of action. Wow. But while one or the other would give a reader a course of action to follow while faced with foolity, the two together do not. *Quote:* I think that passages marked for contradiction should be marked because the ideas contained in the passages contradict not because the bible used a common literary technique to make a point. How common is the literary technique of contradicting yourself inside of two paragraphs? Trek fans have to go through a number of episodes, usually, to find two statements that contradict so blatently. And, you admitted yourself that the two verses contradict. So "be marked because the ideas ...contradict" seems to apply here. The ideas, the instructions, don't and do, contradict.
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YHeloThar	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 09/10/07 18:16:16	Like I said in my first post I am not looking for an argument. I just wanted to have you guys review Proverbs 26:4-5. Looks like the verses have been reviewed and you have made the decision to keep the notation in the SAB. I appreciate that you took the time to explain why you have that notation in the SAB. Thank you.
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Keith and Company	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4140 09/10/07 18:26:21	I am not the SAB. I am merely discussing your suggestion. Steve would be the one to make the actual decision. I just can't see any point to what you're saying.
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YHeloThar	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 09/10/07 18:45:10	Oh. I think that the problem is that we are reading these verses very differently. Perhaps if I put the verses into my own words you will see where I am coming from. 26:4 If you do not try to address a fool's foolish actions then you behave like a fool. 26:5 Address a fool's foolish actions or a fool will think that his foolishness is wise. That is how I would put these two confusing verses into my own words. My point is that I do not see a contradiction with the overall message of these two verses. I think that the contradiction that is apparent in the first halves of each verse is only because the bible uses that literary technique of contrast to make its point. The only reason that this notation struck me as wrong is because only the first halves of each verse are highlighted. It seemed to me that the notation only pointed out a contradiction in wording of the two verses. The contradictory wording of the first half of each verse is necessary to contrast the two actions that the verses discuss.
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Keith and Company	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4140 09/10/07 18:59:57	*Quote:* 26:4 If you do not There's an 'if' in the verse? I thought you weren't supposed to add to the Books, it's a no-no. *Quote:* That is how I would put these two confusing verses into my own words. Good for you! More power to you. When is it getting published? Will you let Steve put up a The Skeptic's Annotated YHeloThar's Bible on the site? *Quote:* is only because the bible uses that literary technique of contrast to make its point. What is the point you think it's trying to make?? Because i see at least two. *Quote:* It seemed to me that the notation only pointed out a contradiction in wording of the two verses. The contradictory wording of the first half of each verse is necessary to contrast the two actions that the verses discuss. Um, yeah. The two verses as they are actually in The Books are contradictory. Because of the first half. Because they direct (not suggest, not if) diametrically opposed actions for the reader. They contradict.
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YHeloThar	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 09/10/07 19:19:34	You said that each verse makes a different point. Would you tell me what point you think that each verse makes. I explained what I thought the point of each verse was in my own words. Would you do the same? I think that you might have some mistaken assumptions about me. I am not a Christian. I am a Buddhist that is reading the Bible because there seems to be some good things in it. Of course there are some bad ideas in the Bible as well. I am reading the Bible to try to enrich myself, and I only decided to bring up this point because the notation seemed unfair. But I digress. Please, explain what you think the point of verses four and five are, and please explain it in your own words because I think that the verses are worded in a confusing manner. Hopefully, once we understand what each other thinks the verses are trying to say we can come to an understanding, even if we agree to disagree.
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FastHack	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3424 09/10/07 23:27:22	*Quote:* It's not a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' statement. As far as I can tell, that is exactly what the passage is trying to convey. ____________________________________ If God inspired men to write the Bible without error, why did He not inspire men to copy it without error? If God miraculously inspired writers to perfection, not inspiring copyists renders the whole point moot.
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Keith and Company	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4140 09/11/07 02:48:44	*Quote:* Would you tell me what point you think that each verse makes. *Quote:* 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Don't reply to a fool's talk, you'll be as much of a fool. *Quote:* 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. Don't ignore a fool's talk, he'll think you agree with him. *Quote:* I think that you might have some mistaken assumptions about me. Where do you get that idea? *Quote:* I am reading the Bible to try to enrich myself, and I only decided to bring up this point because the notation seemed unfair. Unfair? Since it appears to me that it's accurate, how is it unfair? *Quote:* Please, explain what you think the point of verses four and five are, and please explain it in your own words because I think that the verses are worded in a confusing manner. I have. And i agree, they're confusing. But that's because they contradict. Now, in your own words, could you tell me what the The Books literalist is supposed to do when he faces a fool? SHould he or shouldn't he answer a fool according to his folly?
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One Brow	Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2348 09/11/07 03:42:45	*Quote:* The Books literalist is supposed to do when he faces a fool? SHould he or shouldn't he answer a fool according to his folly? Back when I was a literalist, I would have said "both". YOu answer according to the nature of his folly, so he doesn't think you agree, but not according to the manner of his folly, so you don't end up being foolish. Yes, that's reading in a meaning. ----------------------------- With formal systems, such as mathematics, you can have certainty and demonstrability, but not reality. With science, such as physics, you can have reality and demonstrability, but not certainty. With belief systems, such as Christianity, you can have reality and certainty, but not demonstrability. --HRG, on CARM (paraphrased with his approval) "Come now, and let us reason together"
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FaithF111		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2 05/09/08 12:29:58	-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will also be like him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't reply to a fool in the manner in which he is acting, or you'll also look like a fool. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26:5 Answer a fool as his folly deserves, that he not be wise in his own eyes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Answer a fool in simple terms, so he doesn't get a swelled head IOW, if someone was bragging loudly that everyone else were idiots because he knew the Bible said Pi=3, he should not be responded to in a like manner of loud bragging and calling him The Idiot in return (It's called "ruining your witness"). Instead, the braggart should be told in simple terms that he has ignored verse 26 of 1 Kings 7, which states the Sea was shaped like a lily flower, so the brim was flared out with a larger diameter of 10 cubits (and a corresponding circumference), while the rest of the Sea was 30 cubits/pi or 9.55 cubits in diameter. The two verses are in juxtaposition to make an overall point.
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Proverbs 26:4-5	09/09/07 19:54:50	YHeloThar
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 02:53:29	Keith and Company
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 17:34:29	YHeloThar
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 17:56:13	Keith and Company
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 23:27:22	FastHack
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 18:16:16	YHeloThar
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 18:26:21	Keith and Company
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 18:45:10	YHeloThar
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 18:59:57	Keith and Company
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/10/07 19:19:34	YHeloThar
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/11/07 02:48:44	Keith and Company
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	09/11/07 03:42:45	One Brow
Re: Proverbs 26:4-5	05/09/08 12:29:58	FaithF111