Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath in Contradictions Forum

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Waterrock	Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1187 Sep 7 05 10:44 PM	Remove this ad Q: Jesus teaches in Matthew 12:3-8 that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day. Since it is lawful to do good every day, and since its not lawful to do evil on any day, this effectively treats the sabbath-day like any other day. But the commandment to rest on the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments! Shouldnt the Sabbath-rest be required? A: The question, Should Christians keep the Sabbath? has been written about a lot. One example of the approach taken by non-Sabbatarians be read at www.letusreason.org/7thAd9.htm . To me, the early churchs non-enforcement of the Sabbath-law is one of the clearest indications that Jesus taught, and that the apostles understood, that Jesus was leading His followers into a new dispensation. Christians were, and are, free to observe the Sabbath rest-regulations if they want to, but we are not required to; nor should we obligate other Christians to rest on Saturdays. So what happened to the Sabbath-law? The same thing that happened to the rest of the Law (including the rest of the Ten Commandments): it was fulfilled in Christ. Our Sabbath-rest is now in Christ, as we work in this life as His body and anticipate our rest with Him in the Sabbath of the heavenly Promised Land. Many of the commandments in the Law are repeated and expanded upon in the covenant of grace (as I mention when explaining Matthew 5:17-18), but there is no re-affirmation of the command to abstain from work every Saturday. Colossians 2:16-17 is an important passage about this. Yours in Christ, Waterrock
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Hebrews 5 12	Do good on the sabbath	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1 Jan 30 06 12:32 AM	Water, what does this mean? Matthew 5:17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. which is the law that will not pass away until it is finished?
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Rev Etherman	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 401 Feb 28 06 1:21 AM	Something I never quite understood: What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the Law? If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be born that way.
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Yark Hutprancer	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5176 Feb 28 06 7:09 AM	It means that Christians get to ignore embarrassing Old Testament rules in favor of rules that tend toward today's more humane morality systems. It's a means to convince simple people to replace their old, stale religion with a new, exciting one. "If I were God, and I made myself into a regular ol' person, I would have written down the stuff I said myself. I would have had people there with me taking notes. I wouldn't rely on people from the generation after my death to get the story right." - i would be an astronaut on the SAB Message Board
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murfdog19	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2 Apr 22 06 3:50 PM	You can't fool me! Jesus said the law was valid until all things are fulfilled. This would include the events of Revelation and the end of the world. Therefore, all Christians who have worked during Sabbath should be stoned to death. Such is the will of God, right!!
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lajekahr	..............ugh	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9 Dec 17 07 3:23 PM	For the first time since I've been reading your responses, Waterrock, I not only disagree, but I fully disagree. This statement has created such horrible tensions in Christendom. The Athiests are correct. Jesus did say that and he meant it. The Law has not passed away. The legalistic slavery to it has. The covenant of the Messiah is the re-newed covenant not a "brand new" covenant. The Sabbath still holds. The simple answer for this question is that Jesus was pointing out that God had always intended for good works to be more important than "resting" on the Sabbath. The teachers of the time had turned a simple day of rest into a legalistic observances rules that made the day lose its value. Such as you noted with the showbread question before. Also to murfdog19, you are correct, however, the death penalty has already been paid by Jesus, but just because the penalty has been paid does not mean we should continue to sin. Shalom!
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jeff	Re: ..............ugh	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2666 Dec 17 07 7:07 PM	*Quote:* The simple answer for this question is that Jesus was pointing out that God had always intended for good works to be more important than "resting" on the Sabbath. i don't think that the issue is 'good' works, but rather work of any kind. *Quote:* The teachers of the time had turned a simple day of rest into a legalistic observances rules that made the day lose its value. how is it 'legalistic' to enforce not working on the sabbath, when the old testament says we are not to work on the sabbath many times? is it legalistic to insist you shouldn't murder someone, if this is exactly what the OT says? *Quote:* Also to murfdog19, you are correct, however, the death penalty has already been paid by Jesus, but just because the penalty has been paid does not mean we should continue to sin. i'm confused. if we should not continue to sin, why should we work on the sabbath (which is a sin)?
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lajekahr	Sabbath made for man! Not the other way around	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9 Dec 18 07 8:08 AM	*Quote:* i don't think that the issue is 'good' works, but rather work of any kind. The issue is very much about good works. Below is quote from OP. *Quote:* Jesus teaches in Matthew 12:3-8 that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day. *Quote:* how is it 'legalistic' to enforce not working on the sabbath, when the old testament says we are not to work on the sabbath many times? is it legalistic to insist you shouldn't murder someone, if this is exactly what the OT says? The issue is a matter of priorities. As Jesus also teaches and shows, the Sabbath was never intended to enslave the man but to help man, to give him a day of rest. In the ancient times, Jews were considered lazy for taking a "holiday" once a week. God made this day to help us not get burnt out. Imagine if you didn't get a 'weekend' off and had to wait for major holidays to get time off? Yoik! Also see some other verses: Matthew 12:11 "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 "How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." Mark 2:27 "27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." I personally believe the reason Jesus took long trips and healed people on the Sabbath was specifically challenge this notion that had been created that it was a day of do nothing but pray and read the Bible. It was to be a "restful" day. A day to get away from the "daily grind". In other words, the legalism was to enslave people to the Sabbath and force them to do nothing, when the spirit of the Sabbath was to rest and recover from 6 days of hard labor and not be worried about things. *Quote:* i'm confused. if we should not continue to sin, why should we work on the sabbath (which is a sin)? We shouldn't work on the Sabbath, but the question here is really what constitutes work. The teachers of the time had so obssessed with this that they had a rigid set of rules some of which are still in use to this day amongst the orthodox. For example, they limited the distance you could travel because walking/riding was work. They had a count of how many and what kind of sticks a man could pick up on the Sabbath and still be considered "not working". The point Jesus is making is that God was being nice giving 1 out of every 7 days off, not trying to force them to stay home and be boarded and hungry.
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Keith and Company	Sabbath made by god, for god, clearly stated.	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5006 Dec 18 07 8:37 AM	*Quote:* The teachers of the time had so obssessed with this that they had a rigid set of rules some of which are still in use to this day amongst the orthodox. THe problem is not the legalism, th eproblem was the divine stricture against behaviors that COULD GET YOU KILLED. God, or God's Ire, or a desire to avoid pissing God off, was the source of such rules as keepng Kosher. Soon after Moses got the rules for the orthodoxy, he was ordered to put a man to death for gathering sticks. I don't think that it was a later development that nothing, no-how, that resembled work was to be done on the Sabbath. GOD was the one obssessed with His Day and the disposition of one's time during it. The Jews traditionally went overboard on observing the rules, but that was a margin for error for their protection. At a time when bread was about all the people had to eat, bakers could be put to death for stiffing their customers and put 13 rolls in a dozen to avoid accidentally breaking the law. In the same way, Jews avoid seething a kid in its mother's milk by completely separating meat and dairy. If gathering wood for a fire on the Sabbath could get you stoned, they did away with all cooking on that day, thus no need for a cookfire. Sabbath is entirely set aside for the creator and sponsor of the day, not man. At least in the OT.
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jeff	Re: Sabbath made for man! Not the other way around	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2666 Dec 18 07 5:02 PM	*Quote:* The issue is very much about good works. Below is quote from OP. keep going.. *Quote:* The question, Should Christians keep the Sabbath? has been written about a lot. as WR points out, it is never lawful to do un-good works, so the issue is 'should christians keep the sabbath' *Quote:* The issue is a matter of priorities. As Jesus also teaches and shows, the Sabbath was never intended to enslave the man but to help man, to give him a day of rest. then jesus might want to reread the OT. ex. 20:11 *Quote:* For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. the sabbath wasn't a holiday, it was a hallowed day of devotion to god. *Quote:* In other words, the legalism was to enslave people to the Sabbath and force them to do nothing, when the spirit of the Sabbath was to rest and recover from 6 days of hard labor and not be worried about things. you might want to reread the OT as well. ex. 31:13-17 *Quote:* Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. ex: 35:12 *Quote:* Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. the death penalty for not observing a holiday? whew! *Quote:* I personally believe the reason Jesus took long trips and healed people on the Sabbath was specifically challenge this notion that had been created that it was a day of do nothing but pray and read the Bible. It was to be a "restful" day. A day to get away from the "daily grind". the text is clear that one was to spend the day in devotion to god. there's nothing saying that the jews couldn't spend the rest of the week sitting on their duffs, if they chose to do so. *Quote:* The point Jesus is making is that God was being nice giving 1 out of every 7 days off, not trying to force them to stay home and be boarded and hungry. since they were required to get food the day before, and the sabbath consisted of three ceremonial meals, they weren't hungry. i'll have to take your word for it that devoting a day to the talmud and praying to god is boring.
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lajekahr	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9 Dec 19 07 10:37 AM	Remove this ad First, I should point out that the origin of the word holiday is Holy Day, but we've kinda watered that down. Keep in mind that the holidays (Holy Days) came in a variety of forms and all were requirements, not optional. And has been established, the penalties of the OT were very stiff. So as to the Death Penalty as a stiff punishment, that is a whole nuther ball of wax and I think it is addressed somewhere around here, if not I'll take the time to hit that one up. So to say: "huge penalty = not made for us" isn't true. The Feast holidays were also mandatory and had stiff penalties for not following them, including death penalty and exile from the people. And ALL the feast holidays were given similar wording of "devotion to God, make preparations, etc" and they are obvious even to the modern reader of being more "fun" type stuff, such as setting up tents, eating rich foods, reclining to eat, blessing others, etc. Okay, I mean from a certain perspective "bored and hungry". For some people, eating leftovers and studying/meditating all day would be a horrible day, even if you didn't have to do your daily chores. As I reread my point I think I will need to touch a bit more on the death penalty thing. The quick answer: When we sin, we die, period. It destroys a part of us and creates difficulties in our relationships with others. The OT penalties were so stiff as a real reminder that evil spreads rapidly and can cause the death of the community as a whole if left unchecked. Whether this is fair to the modern mindset is a point of huge debate. Look at the state of the death penalty even in murder cases these days.
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Keith and Company	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5006 Dec 19 07 11:04 AM	*Quote:* Keep in mind that the holidays (Holy Days) came in a variety of forms and all were requirements, not optional. And has been established, the penalties of the OT were very stiff. So as to the Death Penalty as a stiff punishment, that is a whole nuther ball of wax and I think it is addressed somewhere around here, if not I'll take the time to hit that one up. So to say: "huge penalty = not made for us" isn't true. I don't follow that. The purpose of the Sabbath was for devotions to God. God's the one that benefits from it. That's why the penalty for not participating was so strict. If it was for our benefit, would we have to worry about being stoned to death for not resting properly? *Quote:* The Feast holidays were also mandatory and had stiff penalties Which has what to do with the purpose of the Sabbath? *Quote:* For some people, eating leftovers and studying/meditating all day would be a horrible day, even if you didn't have to do your daily chores. Considering the standard of living at the time, a day without work means that you're going to be a day behind on your chores the next day. Once a week, you have to work extra hard to get chorse done before Sabbath, hopefully enough so that a day's slide wouldn't ruin something, then work extra hard the day after to catch up on what was needed. Growing up in an agricultural district, i know that there is always something that needs doing on a farm, every day. The scurrying to pile two days worth of food for the animals before sundown, the scurrying to clean up two days worth of manure on the day after... creating this extra work on two days for one day of rest does not make sense if the day of rest was for our benefit. It does make sense if God demands it, for Himself, and doesn't really care how much toil it causes for the workers. Same as a high ranking visitor to a military command. It wasn't for the enlisted's benefit, even though we didn't do any work during the tour. We did extra cleaning before, and grooming, and a lot of catching up after. But it was for someone else's benefit.
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jeff	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2666 Dec 19 07 4:00 PM	*Quote:* So to say: "huge penalty = not made for us" isn't true. do you really believe that a law saying 'take a holiday or we'll kill you' is a law made FOR man? it sounds more to me like 'blasphemy carries a death penalty and not observing the sabbath as outlined in the law of moses is blasphemy' *Quote:* When we sin, we die, period. It destroys a part of us and creates difficulties in our relationships with others. The OT penalties were so stiff as a real reminder that evil spreads rapidly and can cause the death of the community as a whole if left unchecked. i find that when discussing this with christians, the dance inevitably leads away from the topic and off into tangental issues. the question is 'should the sabbath be observed'. the bible says not to do so is a sin, you seem to be of the opinion that sin is a terrible thing, yet argue that the sabbath isn't to be observed. let's make this easy. according to the bible, it is a sin to light a fire on the sabbath (ex: 35:3). can you light a fire on the sabbath today? why or why not?
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lajekahr	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9 Dec 20 07 12:31 PM	.....I'm arguing that the Sabbath is to be observed. The only question is what does that mean. That is where the whole "made for man" thing comes into play. Clearly the Messiah is correcting the current thoughts of his time on what the Sabbath is about. This isn't the only passage that discusses this "problem". From what I've seen and studied the point is a day of rest and reflection. Yes, one should turn their focus "heavenward" but it is better to sleep the day away than to profane it by working. Also, part of the mandate against "fire making" was to show that God intended woman to participate in the rest also. Since they were the primary users of fire to cook.
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Keith and Company	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5006 Dec 20 07 12:58 PM	*Quote:* Clearly the Messiah is correcting the current thoughts of his time on what the Sabbath is about. Clearly a false messiah is misquoting the rules about the Sabbath, possibly for his own agenda. Maybe he just misunderstood. *Quote:* From what I've seen and studied the point is a day of rest and reflection. Maybe that's a current thought, which will be corrected when the (real) Messiah comes [back?]. The OT rules for the Sabbath are clearly not to benefit Man. If it were, at least the non-Hebrew slaves and women could cook and do work, while the mens rested. *Quote:* Also, part of the mandate against "fire making" was to show that God intended woman to participate in the rest also. Since they were the primary users of fire to cook. Interesting idea. Where does it come from? Any litany source?
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jeff	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2666 Dec 20 07 4:21 PM	i get the feeling that you're making this up as you go, but taking this... *Quote:* .....I'm arguing that the Sabbath is to be observed. and this... *Quote:* Also, part of the mandate against "fire making" was to show that God intended woman to participate in the rest also. Since they were the primary users of fire to cook. ...it is therefore a sin to light a fire on the sabbath today, correct?
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utopian indigent	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1317 Dec 21 07 9:58 PM	With the greatest respect to Waterrock, though sacrificial law was obviously fulfilled in, and even pointed towards, Jesus' sacrifice, the ten commandments still stand. We don't obey because of being law-bound, but due to the love of Christ and the originally intended sensibleness of these laws. As for the sabbath: 1. There is no way of accurately counting back the weeks for thousands of years to determine which day is originallly the seventh, and that was never the intention. 2. The original sensibility was that, apart from rest being necessary, to live the life of someone aimed at the afterlife, a complete break from the routines enforced by this temporal life is crucial. That has still being achieved - most people can deviate from work routine on Sunday without the usual pangs of anxiety. To do good on whatever day the Sabbath is, as Jesus indicated, is no transgression of the intention of the Law. He also alluded to this by saying that the sabbath is there for man, not the other way around. There is no better way to rest the soul than to do good. Living the religious life as described by James (do good to orphans and widows and resist being soiled by this world) is impossible without having one special (holy) day per week. There is, as usual, no contradiction here except for those who want there to be a contradiction. The free rein on interpretation given with regard to the Word of God is, as I've indicated before, intentional.
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Argy Lacedom	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4498 Dec 22 07 6:00 AM	*Quote:* 1. There is no way of accurately counting back the weeks for thousands of years to determine which day is originallly the seventh, and that was never the intention. What???? Of course there is. Ask any Jew. Sunday is the day of worship because Constantine (the sun worshipper who kicked off modern christianity) decided SUNday was the day he wanted to worship on. Also, if it's impossible to determine which day is the sabbath, why don't you simply agree with the Jews to celebrate on Saturday? ________________________________________________________________________ One man's theology is another man's belly laugh - Robert A. Heinlein When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land - Desmond Tutu
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Hawker Hurricane	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1874 Dec 22 07 8:55 AM	I guess our ancestors couldn't count to seven, since there are only five fingers on a hand. ================== We should fear God (Matthew 10:28) We should love God (Matthew 22:37) There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)
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Argy Lacedom	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4498 Dec 22 07 11:37 AM	Maybe that's why men do better at maths. Women can count to twenty but men can count to twenty one. ________________________________________________________________________ One man's theology is another man's belly laugh - Robert A. Heinlein When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land - Desmond Tutu
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Jenth101	Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 337 Dec 22 07 1:36 PM	Remove this ad Eww! No! women can count to twenty-two!
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Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Sep 7 05 10:44 PM	Waterrock
Do good on the sabbath	Jan 30 06 12:32 AM	Hebrews 5 12
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Feb 28 06 1:21 AM	Rev Etherman
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Feb 28 06 7:09 AM	Yark Hutprancer
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Apr 22 06 3:50 PM	murfdog19
..............ugh	Dec 17 07 3:23 PM	lajekahr
Re: ..............ugh	Dec 17 07 7:07 PM	jeff
Sabbath made for man! Not the other way around	Dec 18 07 8:08 AM	lajekahr
Sabbath made by god, for god, clearly stated.	Dec 18 07 8:37 AM	Keith and Company
Re: Sabbath made for man! Not the other way around	Dec 18 07 5:02 PM	jeff
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 22 07 1:36 PM	Jenth101
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 19 07 10:37 AM	lajekahr
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 19 07 11:04 AM	Keith and Company
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 19 07 4:00 PM	jeff
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 20 07 12:31 PM	lajekahr
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 20 07 12:58 PM	Keith and Company
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 20 07 4:21 PM	jeff
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 21 07 9:58 PM	utopian indigent
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 22 07 6:00 AM	Argy Lacedom
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 22 07 8:55 AM	Hawker Hurricane
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 22 07 11:37 AM	Argy Lacedom
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 22 07 7:22 PM	1skybluepink
Re: Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath	Dec 23 07 1:48 PM	Argy Lacedom
more on the Sabbath	Dec 27 07 9:26 AM	lajekahr
Re: more on the Sabbath	Dec 27 07 4:40 PM	Argy Lacedom
Re: more on the Sabbath	Dec 28 07 4:15 PM	Yark Hutprancer
Re: more on the Sabbath	Dec 28 07 7:44 AM	jeff
Re: more on the Sabbath	Dec 28 07 4:18 PM	Yark Hutprancer
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 2 08 8:04 AM	lajekahr
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 2 08 1:54 PM	Hawker Hurricane
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 2 08 5:07 PM	Malkut
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 2 08 8:30 PM	Hawker Hurricane
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 2 08 5:42 PM	jeff
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 3 08 11:54 AM	lajekahr
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 3 08 12:01 PM	Keith and Company
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 6 08 12:34 PM	lajekahr
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 6 08 2:46 PM	Argy Lacedom
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 6 08 4:47 PM	Malkut
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 6 08 11:25 PM	Hawker Hurricane
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 7 08 4:56 AM	Keith and Company
Re: more on the Sabbath	Jan 14 08 8:11 AM	lajekahr

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Matthew 12:3-8 - Do Good On The Sabbath

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