Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple? in Contradictions Forum

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Waterrock

Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

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Posts: 1187

Jan 24 06 5:11 PM

Q: In Matthew 27:28, Matthew says that Jesus robe was scarlet. But Mark 15:17 says that they clothed him with purple, and John 19:2 describes a purple robe also. However, scarlet is a deep, vermilion-ish color, while purple is, well, purple. Isnt this a contradiction?

A: No; what we have here is analogous to a pair of grey blue jeans. Purple garments were made using a particular kind of dye, usually derived from myrex shellfish. A brief description of the ancient process of obtaining purple dye can be read at www.chriscooksey.demon.co.uk/tyrian . At that webpage there is a quotation from the writings of Pliny the Elder. Pliny states, among other things, A frankly red colour is inferior to one with a tinge of black.

Thus it seems clear that the color which we know as purple was not the only tint which could be produced using purple-dye as it was known in the first century. It could also be used to make reddish garments, and such a scarlet garment, due to the process by which it was dyed, could still be validly called purple.

Yours in Christ,

Waterrock

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Iznomneak

Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

#1

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Posts: 3083

Jan 24 06 5:49 PM

Quote:
However, scarlet is a deep, vermilion-ish color, while purple is, well, purple. Isnt this a contradiction?

A: No;

For your hypothesis to be correct, you should be able to identify at least one color that satifies both scarlet and purple.

Which color satifies both scarlet and purple?

Here is one color chart (you may use a color chart of your own choice).

hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/reference/color_codes/

with Science Fiction, all things are possible

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Rev Etherman

Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

#2

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Posts: 401

Jan 25 06 10:36 AM

So was the robe purple or scarlet?

If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be born that way.

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Iznomneak

ping Waterrock

#3

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Posts: 3083

Jan 31 06 1:30 PM

Do you think an example of the color of the robe that represents both scarlet and purple is a fair test of your hypothesis?

with Science Fiction, all things are possible

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Waterrock

Scarlet and Purple

#4

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Posts: 1187

Jan 31 06 10:58 PM

Iznomneak ~

Iz: "Do you think an example of the color of the robe that represents both scarlet and purple is a fair test of your hypothesis?"

No, because my hypothesis is not that the robe was two different colors. The robe was one color (scarlet) and had become scarlet by being infused with the dye known as "purple." In other words, as I said in the initial post, the references to the robe as "purple" do not limit its coloration any more than the term "blue jeans" limits the coloration of denim jeans nowadays. I have seen grey blue jeans. Have you?

Imagine Daryl the Archaeologist, a century from now, reading two reports of what someone was wearing:
Abel's Report: Fred was wearing jeans. They were grey.
Mabel's Report: Fred was wearing blue jeans.
Puzzled, the reader consults a color-wheel and notices that blue is not grey. But then Daryl also finds, in a report about garment-production written in the same general period in which Abel and Mabel lived, the comment that some blue jeans were chemically treated in a way that made them grey. Would it be fair, in light of this knowledge, for Daryl to conclude that Abel and Mabel must be contradicting themselves? Or would Daryl logically be open to the possibility that Fred was wearing a pair of grey blue jeans?

Yours in Christ,

Waterrock

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Diskeyezed

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#5

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Posts: 851

Feb 1 06 3:33 AM

Quote:
Imagine Daryl the Archaeologist, a century from now, reading two reports of what someone was wearing:
Abel's Report: Fred was wearing jeans. They were grey.
Mabel's Report: Fred was wearing blue jeans.
Puzzled, the reader consults a color-wheel and notices that blue is not grey. But then Daryl also finds, in a report about garment-production written in the same general period in which Abel and Mabel lived, the comment that some blue jeans were chemically treated in a way that made them grey. Would it be fair, in light of this knowledge, for Daryl to conclude that Abel and Mabel must be contradicting themselves? Or would Daryl logically be open to the possibility that Fred was wearing a pair of grey blue jeans?

Grey jeans are not "blue jeans." Here's the definition of "blue jeans":

Quote:
Clothes, especially pants, made of blue denim.

Look up jeans at Amazon.com, and those that are not blue are not called "blue jeans." Go to your local clothing store and look for "blue jeans" that aren't blue.

Your analogy doesn't hold up. The fact that some people do erroneously refer to other colors of jeans as "blue jeans" does not make them "blue jeans."

"As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls

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The Dutch Baker

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#6

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Posts: 43

Feb 2 06 1:31 AM

This is pretty simple. He's trying to explain it to you in terms that a child can understand. First there was a dye called purple dye. It made garments of different shades. One shade was scarlett. Often the garments treated with the dye would have a deep violet color that we know today as the color purple. The dye came first, later crayola came up with the name "purple" for a crayon. Its simple. When they talked about a purple robe they didn't even mention color. The color of the robe was scarlett. Simple.

Try this for the jeans example:

Imagine that Crayola makes a crayon called denim which is a deep blue color. In the next fifty years or so, denim will be a color in everyday language.

Imagine Daryl the Archaeologist, a century (or 2000 years) from now, reading two reports of what someone was wearing:
Abel's Report: Fred was wearing jeans. They were grey.
Mabel's Report: Fred was wearing denim jeans.
Puzzled, the reader consults a color-wheel and notices that denim is not grey. But then Daryl also finds, in a report about garment-production written in the same general period in which Abel and Mabel lived, the comment that some denim jeans were chemically treated in a way that made them grey. Would it be fair, in light of this knowledge, for Daryl to conclude that Abel and Mabel must be contradicting themselves? Or would Daryl logically be open to the possibility that Fred was wearing a pair of grey denim jeans?

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2fleas

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#7

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Posts: 94

Feb 3 06 1:37 AM

Ok granting that this is a historic event. Would they have clothed Jesus in a new purple robe? I say no. They would have used something that had been worn a bit. I think the robe was in fact 2 different colors. The side exposed to the elements was faded to scarlet. Sunlight, acid rain, and radiation from alien spacecraft can be hard on primitive dyes. The smelly underside was still the original purple color except for the armpits which were probably stained some other color

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Diskeyezed

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#8

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Posts: 851

Feb 3 06 3:36 AM

Quote:
First there was a dye called purple dye. It made garments of different shades. One shade was scarlett. Often the garments treated with the dye would have a deep violet color that we know today as the color purple. The dye came first, later crayola came up with the name "purple" for a crayon. Its simple. When they talked about a purple robe they didn't even mention color. The color of the robe was scarlett. Simple.

Mark 15 is not describing somebody making a robe. It is an account of Jesus' trial, and verse 17 says that he was clothed in "purple," a color, which is not scarlet.

My post was only pointing out that it's rather absurd to use an analogy of one making a statement in error to try to prove that the texts in question are without error.

Quote:
Abel's Report: Fred was wearing jeans. They were grey.
Mabel's Report: Fred was wearing denim jeans.
Puzzled, the reader consults a color-wheel and notices that denim is not grey.

Denim is not a color, it's a material, and a rational reader would not be "puzzled" by this.

"As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls

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The Dutch Baker

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#9

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Posts: 43

Feb 3 06 7:57 AM

Of course a rational reader would not be puzzled by a purple robe being scarlet in color, but apparently we aren't dealing with "rational" readers here.

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raphjd

Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

#10

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Posts: 2169

Feb 3 06 9:07 AM

Quote:
No; what we have here is analogous to a pair of grey blue jeans. Purple garments were made using a particular kind of dye, usually derived from myrex shellfish.

Ah, so now we know why they were forebidden to eat shellfish, then needed it to color their robes.

"If Homosexuals went back into the closet, then there would be no more Homosexuality in this world" - Tom DeLay, US Congressman R-TX

"And secondly, I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Christian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son" - C.S. Lewis

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Keith and Company

Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

#11

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Posts: 5006

Feb 3 06 9:10 AM

Eat shellfish? Nor touch their carcasses. But does carcass include shell? I'm not sure if shells would be Kosher, and no Rabbi today that answers my emails feels that the Kosher restriction against Oysters applies to Pearls.

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psychoboy

Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

#12

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Posts: 1878

Feb 3 06 7:26 PM

Quote:
So was the robe purple or scarlet?

Yeah, what he said. Did God want us to know what color the robe was, or was he just trying to confuse us?

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Diskeyezed

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#13

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Posts: 851

Feb 5 06 8:01 AM

Quote:
Of course a rational reader would not be puzzled by a purple robe being scarlet in color, but apparently we aren't dealing with "rational" readers here.

A "'rational' reader" knows that purple and scarlet are not the same color.

Here's the word used:

Quote:
porphura

1) the purple fish, a species of shell fish or mussel
2) a fabric coloured with PURPLE dye, a garment made from PURPLE cloth

Purple is not scarlet. What color was the robe?

"As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls

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Iznomneak

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#14

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Posts: 3083

Feb 5 06 9:59 AM

Quote:
Iz: "Do you think an example of the color of the robe that represents both scarlet and purple is a fair test of your hypothesis?"

WR: No, because my hypothesis is not that the robe was two different colors.

I didn't say your hypothesis is that the robe was two colors. I asked you to show what the color of the robe was, which I believe you have addressed here:

Quote:
The robe was one color (scarlet)

Contrast scarlet and purple:

The closest blend of scarlet and purple that I found was this:

Quote:
Purple garments were made using a particular kind of dye, usually derived from myrex shellfish.

Although ancient technological processes are interesting, they are not relevant to this discussion. The question is specifically: what color is the robe?

Quote:
Or would Daryl logically be open to the possibility that Fred was wearing a pair of grey blue jeans?

I see no point in debating analogies, but the correct term would be grey jeans, not grey blue jeans.

The simplest explanation (assuming that this was an actual event) would be that the author of Matthew saw (or heard) that the robe was scarlet and the author of John saw (or heard) that the color was purple. Since scarlet and purple are two different colors then the contradiction (Inconsistency; discrepancy) between the two authors stands.

with Science Fiction, all things are possible

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Diskeyezed

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#15

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Posts: 851

Feb 5 06 10:24 AM

Quote:
The closest blend of scarlet and purple that I found was this:

And I definitely wouldn't describe that as scarlet.

Quote:
Although ancient technological processes are interesting, they are not relevant to this discussion.

Evidently Waterrock wants us to believe that they used a purple dye but ended up with a scarlet robe, and that one eyewitness described what his/her eyes witnessed while another, for some strange reason, referred to what the dye should have made it, totally disregarding what color his/her eyes actually saw.

Quote:
The simplest explanation (assuming that this was an actual event) would be that the author of Matthew saw (or heard) that the robe was scarlet and the author of John saw (or heard) that the color was purple. Since scarlet and purple are two different colors then the contradiction (Inconsistency; discrepancy) between the two authors stands.

Ditto.

"As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls

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The Dutch Baker

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#16

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Posts: 43

Feb 5 06 8:10 PM

I think most of you are stubornly missing the point of what Waterrock was saying. Even after an explaination, you are still not getting it. here:

John did not describe the color of the robe.
"PURPLE" IS NOT A COLOR IN THE BIBLE, its a type description. There was no color "purple" then. Had John been trying to describe the color of a garment that was purple to our standards, he would have probably said "violet" or "reddish violet". He was describing the robe that Jesus wore, a purple robe. A scarlet one at that.

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Iznomneak

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#17

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Posts: 3083

Feb 6 06 7:45 AM

Quote:
I think most of you are stubornly missing the point of what Waterrock was saying.

No, I get his (and your) point, I just don't agree that it is valid. I think the both of you are being stubborn on the meaning of the word "contradiction".

Quote:
"PURPLE" IS NOT A COLOR IN THE BIBLE, its a type description.

Not according to these (and other) verses:

Quote:
Exd 36:37 And he made an hanging for the tabernacle door [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, of needlework;
Exd 25:4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' [hair],
Exd 26:1 Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle [with] ten curtains [of] fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet : [with] cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them.
Exd 26:31 And thou shalt make a vail [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made:
Exd 26:36 And thou shalt make an hanging for the door of the tent, [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework.
Exd 27:16 And for the gate of the court [shall be] an hanging of twenty cubits, [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen, wrought with needlework: [and] their pillars [shall be] four, and their sockets four.
Exd 28:5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.
Exd 38:18 And the hanging for the gate of the court [was] needlework, [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen: and twenty cubits [was] the length, and the height in the breadth [was] five cubits, answerable to the hangings of the court.
Exd 39:3 And they did beat the gold into thin plates, and cut [it into] wires, to work [it] in the blue, and in the purple, and in the scarlet, and in the fine linen, [with] cunning work.
Exd 39:24 And they made upon the hems of the robe pomegranates [of] blue, and purple, and scarlet, [and] twined [linen].

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Quote:
He was describing the robe that Jesus wore, a purple robe. A scarlet one at that.

Let's test your hypothesis, show me another verse where a purple robe means a scarlet robe.

with Science Fiction, all things are possible

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The Dutch Baker

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#18

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Posts: 43

Feb 8 06 12:03 PM

You've rendered this string dead.

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planner15

Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

#19

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Posts: 12

Feb 8 06 12:09 PM

while it is true that different shades were derived from the dye of the mussle shell known as "purple" it should also be noted that the scripture in matthew 27:28 uses a totally different word from the one in mark 15:17. the word translated as "purple" in the new testament is the greek word "porrhothen" and referrs to both the color, the dye, the clothe and the mussle which produced the color purple.

the greek word used in matthew 27:28 is "kokkinos" which refers to an insect (known to us as vermillion) from which the scarlet or crimsson dye was taken.

i believe that this so called "contradiction" in scripture is more of a matter of the fact that one man may call tan beige while another calls it light brown or one may call torquoise green while another calls it blue. when there are so many viable similarities in the gospels to prove the fidelity of the scriptural account of Jesus, this is hardly worthy as a matter to point out inconsistancey or contradiction when the particular word that a writer chooses to use in order to discribe a color may be nothing more than what their eye perceives it to be and that could easily have been affected by the way the light hit it or matthew and john's own color perception ability. mark's account was not that of an eye witness so we cannot know why he choose to use the word for purple and can only assume it was because that was how the narrative was told to him by whatever eye witness he gleaned it from, whether person or holy ghost.

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The Dutch Baker

Re: Scarlet and Purple

#20

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Posts: 43

Feb 8 06 12:17 PM

Exodus is an old testament book. It was translated from a different language. This renders your argument invalid. I don't know the Greek vs. the Hebrew words for purple and what their meaning at the time of writing was, but my best guess is that the hebrew in exodus was using a word that meant the color purple.

You have provided the verse that you asked for:

Quote:
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

They even specifically call the purple that she is arrayed in, scarlet in color!

Let's argue about the gold she was decked with. Maybe the gold was just the color of the precious stones.

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Replies

Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Jan 24 06 5:11 PM	Waterrock
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Jan 24 06 5:49 PM	Iznomneak
ping Waterrock	Jan 31 06 1:30 PM	Iznomneak
Scarlet and Purple	Jan 31 06 10:58 PM	Waterrock
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 1 06 3:33 AM	Diskeyezed
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 2 06 1:31 AM	The Dutch Baker
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 3 06 1:37 AM	2fleas
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 3 06 3:36 AM	Diskeyezed
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 3 06 7:57 AM	The Dutch Baker
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 5 06 8:01 AM	Diskeyezed
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 8 06 12:03 PM	The Dutch Baker
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 5 06 9:59 AM	Iznomneak
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 5 06 10:24 AM	Diskeyezed
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 5 06 8:10 PM	The Dutch Baker
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 6 06 7:45 AM	Iznomneak
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 8 06 12:17 PM	The Dutch Baker
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 8 06 12:31 PM	planner15
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 8 06 3:12 PM	Iznomneak
Red Grapes	Feb 9 06 12:28 AM	Waterrock
Re: Red Grapes	Feb 10 06 1:31 PM	Franciscan Monkey
Re: Red Grapes	Feb 10 06 2:39 PM	Iznomneak
The Scarlet Purple Robe	Feb 11 06 11:34 AM	Waterrock
Re: The Scarlet Purple Robe	Feb 11 06 1:15 PM	Franciscan Monkey
Re: The Scarlet Purple Robe	Feb 11 06 9:08 PM	Waterrock
Re: The Scarlet Purple Robe	Feb 11 06 10:43 PM	Franciscan Monkey
Re: The Scarlet Purple Robe	Feb 14 06 9:05 AM	Iznomneak
Re: Scarlet and Purple	May 15 06 8:17 PM	psychoboy
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 22 08 12:59 AM	believer1
Re: Scarlet and Purple	Feb 22 08 5:15 AM	Rambo123UK
Tagent alert!	Feb 26 08 8:47 AM	corwin17
Re: Tagent alert!	Feb 26 08 9:24 AM	i would be an astronaut
Re: Tagent alert!	Feb 26 08 2:00 PM	jeff
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Jan 25 06 10:36 AM	Rev Etherman
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Feb 3 06 7:26 PM	psychoboy
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Feb 3 06 9:07 AM	raphjd
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Feb 3 06 9:10 AM	Keith and Company
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Feb 8 06 12:09 PM	planner15
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Feb 9 06 11:14 AM	Yark Hutprancer
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Feb 9 06 11:42 AM	Cugel
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Feb 23 08 5:55 PM	1skybluepink
Purple not a color in ancient times?	Apr 20 06 10:06 AM	Ba al Zebhubh
Colors used interchangably	May 11 06 3:41 PM	Starlight
Re: Colors used interchangably	May 11 06 6:00 PM	Iznomneak
Re: Colors used interchangably	May 11 06 7:29 PM	Starlight
Re: Colors used interchangably	May 11 06 7:46 PM	Starlight
Re: Colors used interchangably	May 11 06 7:52 PM	Keith and Company
Hoopsies	May 11 06 7:58 PM	Badsidhe
Re: Hoopsies	May 12 06 6:48 AM	AniRB
Re: Colors used interchangably	May 12 06 5:43 AM	Iznomneak
Hoops used interchangably	May 11 06 7:50 PM	Badsidhe
Re: Hoops used interchangably	May 14 06 9:08 PM	Ba al Zebhubh
Re: Hoops used interchangably	May 15 06 6:04 PM	Badsidhe
Adding to the hoops:	May 11 06 8:50 PM	Badsidhe
Re: Colors used interchangably	May 12 06 5:25 AM	Iznomneak
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Mar 19 08 3:36 PM	WordClock
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Mar 20 08 2:42 AM	Rambo123UK
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	Mar 23 08 11:31 PM	santaisgod
Re: Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?	May 4 08 6:58 AM	FaithF111

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Matthew 27:28 - The Robe: Scarlet or Purple?

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