http://oldtestamentadventures.blogspot.com/
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andygeers
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New blog for those fascinated by Old Testament weirdness |
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I've launched a new blog recently celebrating all that is weird and wonderful about the Old Testament. It's a
place for anybody (of all religious persuasions and none) who finds the Old T interesting enough to talk about. Maybe you wonder why anybody would want to
follow this apparently absurd old book? If you're open minded enough to think further, why not pay a visit?
http://oldtestamentadventures.blogspot.com/ |
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Keith and Company |
#1 | |||
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Why would i have to be open-minded to read on the weirdness in those ancient myths?
Talking snakes, flat earth, scrying bowls, mass murder... It's all written there plain as day, no matter what my opinions on it are. |
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twillight |
#2 | |||
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Ditto.
And psalms are not better at all. Always that "smite them!" part in them... |
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busterggi |
#3 | |||
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Thanks - always good to read fantasy that doesn't have any elves.
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Anon |
#4 | |||
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Thanks for posting your blog, andygeers. I actually just finished blogging
Genesis not that long ago and am (re)reading the Bible, so it's true I am interested in the Old Testament. Thanks to reading the Bible and Steve
Well's Dwindling in Unbelief, I find a lot of very
weird stuff that I don't remember or never knew.
I checked your blog and it does say it's open to atheists and agnostics, so I'll be sure to check it out.
I Am The Blog - site with blog, news, links and other
information for atheists and other freethinkers (agnostics, skeptics, etc.)
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andygeers |
#5 | |||
Keith and Company wrote:Obviously reading doesn't require any particular bent of personality. It's just that my intention is not simply to find mere readers, but to be a place for people to hang out who are actually interested in thinking about and discussing these things openly, rather than simply assuming that people who believe in the God of the Old Testament must necessarily be mentally retarded. All I meant to suggest was that people disinclined to at least consider the possibility that there is some sense to the Old Testament might derive more enjoyment from communities other than my blog. That said, I'd like to stress that the main target audience of the blog is people who are not believers, who do find talking snakes and mass murder something worth raising an eyebrow over, and who are just curious enough to engage with others who are strange enough to like this unfathomable God. |
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Keith and Company |
#6 | |||
andygeers wrote:I am guessing that by 'some sense' you have a different use of the phrase, in context, than i would. and who are just curious enough to engage with others who are strange enough to like this unfathomable God.Oh, i wouldn't say he was any more unfathomable than the next mass murderer. So. For open-minded discussion, The Books says that God created Man. God later noticed that Man was wicked. God repented the making of Man. God wiped out all but 8 of Man. Every(- My observations are that God had a few mistakes here. He didn't make Man right in the first place, his plan to fix the problem was useless, and he didn't figure this out until after implementing the plan. But at least he did learn from the experience... You really read this and find something to like about that inept creator? |
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andygeers |
#7 | |||
Keith and Company wrote:Not at all, I mean exactly what you mean by it - that's my point. Maybe you find it impossible even to consider that there might be "some sense" (meaning what you mean by that) - in which case, my blog is not for you. Or maybe you meet someone who can "read this and find something to like about that inept creator" and you find that very unlikely, certainly very curious, and you wish to hear more about what that something might be, and to talk with others about it. In which case, I invite you to participate in the discussion on the blog. |
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Keith and Company |
#8 | |||
In which case, I invite you to participate in the discussion on the blog.Well, I've just had bad experiences with blogs or forums belonging to The Faithful. Either being banned for pointing out errors, or banned for not accepting their conclusions or having my posts edited until it agrees with the board owner. And, it seems to me like you're trying to 'save' us nonbelievers. I get enough of that already. |
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andygeers |
#9 | |||
Keith and Company wrote: Sorry to hear that. Like I said, my blog is built on the presupposition that the Old Testament *is* crazy and weird, and personally I'm not ashamed of that and feel no need to play it down, so I'd be quite keen to get people involved who *do* disagree with things and want to keep me on my toes! But I'd totally understand if you've been burned in the past by bad experiences. |
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andygeers |
#10 | |||
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Not sure if anybody is interested, but I've started a new series of posts on the question "Is God a genocidal monomaniac?", looking at one of the
more common complaints I come across.
http://oldtestamentadventures.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-god-genocidal-monomaniac.html |
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Keith and Company |
#11 | |||
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How original. You're ducking the 'genocide' complaint by saying that the mass slaughter was justifiable.
By The Way: andygeers wrote:Is that really a common question? Do you maybe mean, "Megalomaniac"? Monomania is about paranoia. Which does seem the case with respect to the tower of Babel. But for the genocide, obsessing about power would seem to fit better.
Last Edited By: Keith and Company 07/06/09 06:50:10.
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Argy Lacedom |
#12 | |||
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From your blog...
I suggest it is not the existence of questions per se that is at issue, but the nature of the answers. In one of my signatures I pose the question: "Is a thing good because god commands it, or does god command it because it is good?" If the former, then believers must accept that if god commands the rape of five year old girls then that is good. If the latter then we have no need for a god to tell us what is good and bad - we share a common knowledge of good and bad and his acts are subject to judgement against this universal standard in the same way ours are. If a thing is good because god commands it then you, as a believer, can make the case that the acts of god in the old testament were good, simply because god said so. However, if you do take that position you must also accept that rape of five year old girls would be good if god says so. If you find that position repugnant then you must accept that the knowledge of good and evil is independent of god. This allows you to judge god against the universal standard of good. By that standard his actions were obscene. There is no need for the sort of mental contortions that you seem so eager to resort to in order to exonerate him.
"Faith is believing what you know isn't true" - Arthur C Clarke, 1997
Last Edited By: Argy Lacedom 07/06/09 10:33:00.
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wickle |
#13 | |||
Argy Lacedom wrote:Yet , I see the contorting beggining. Things were different then......These things were 'justice'..................These things were to teach....................these things were 'fill in the gap'. Rhetorically , why would anyone need to feel uneasy questioning the moral boudaries or levels of thier god? If you are in fact going to rely and believe and have ever-lasting faith of this entity, it is , in my mind mandatory that this entity not make you sick to your stomach , with its actions,either towards you or someone else. And for goodness sakes, why would anyone need to look high and low for excuses for this entity and any single action. Weird and wunderful? No. Unexcusable , maybe. I`m thinking that all or most compassion and conscience and reason must be forfetted, in order to want faith in this deity. Who will save this dieties 'soul'? |
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Keith and Company |
#14 | |||
wickle wrote:Whoa. There's an image. God in the confessional. |
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wickle |
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God before his father, saying, 'Well, they made me do it. I was jealous.I was ragefull, I was ......well ,they deserved it!'
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andygeers |
#16 | |||
Argy Lacedom wrote:Personally, I'd say it was neither the questions nor the answers, but the attitude. To say "God, I don't understand this - help me understand what's going on" is very different from "I'm repulsed by what I see here - I want nothing more to do with this god, but will continue to rant about him". "Is a thing good because god commands it, or does god command it because it is good?" I've thought about this many times over the years, and I can see hints of both in the Bible. Personally I lean towards the former, and I think that same attitude might explain events like Abraham being willing to almost sacrifice his son Isaac even when it made very little sense to him. But it goes hand in hand with a trust in the consistency of God's character, and the expectation that he wouldn't suddenly tell you to do something arbitrary like rape five year olds (I'm presuming that was a random example, rather than something you think comes from the Bible?). Even Abraham rationalises based upon his knowledge of God's character - see Hebrews 11 for the description - and infers from his knowledge of the goodness of God that he must have had some plan to bring Isaac back from the dead. |
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andygeers |
#17 | |||
Keith and Company wrote: Hmm... Wasn't aware I was ducking the issue - wasn't aware I was saying much at all in this introductory post. Though maybe I didn't make it clear enough that this was just the first post in a series, and I'd be coming back to the various issues involved? Regarding Megalomaniacs - you're probably right. I checked the definition of a Monomaniac in the dictionary first, and it seemed to suggest it was just any single-minded obsession, which seemed to fit the accusation. |
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twillight |
#18 | |||
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This comment of yours was the point I got pissed enough to make a comment.
You are either ignorant, or are not familiar with the Bible. You come out the "Abraham-argument". Now what to do with Jephte, and the others? Because they sacrifised humans. And Jephte's case is the same as Abraham's but n "divine intervention". The "Abraham-argument" is a worthless lie. Now the "God would never command raping a 5 years old child" do not stand either. First check the story of the "Sheckhem massacre". There little Dinah is 4 years old, and NOONE has a problem with that. Then check Psalms 137. The last line of that prayer says it is a very good deed to smash newborn babies head on a rock. Or check the "Amalekites end". God commands there complete genocide, including their animals. At another point your precious God commands directly to "open womens vomb" by sword (thus killing unborn babies)! No matter what, there is not a single line in the Bible I would sign as "good". (Well, there are some actually. But those verses talks about non-jews/non-christains acts.) |
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Anon |
#19 | |||
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I replied to your second post about God's apparent genocidal tendencies. In a nutshell, I argue that an all-powerful God should be able to come up with
something better than killing his masterpiece (made in his own image). Humans arguably have the right to kill someone in self-defense, or possibly to prevent
future killings when no other solution is humanly possible. Since God can do anything, and can harden or "soften" anyone's heart that he wants
to, I can't find any justification for God killing anyone.
andygeers wrote:Believe me, for years I wondered about why God did things and didn't do things, both in the Bible and in the modern world. I used to pray to God all the time about the good and bad things that happened in my life, before I eventually realized that the good and bad things in the world and in the Bible made a lot more sense without a God. Until people stop doing things in God's name (such as killing or anointing the room where the Sotomayor confirmation hearings will occur) there will be a reason to rant about God. andygeers wrote:Let's leave aside for the moment that God's character in the Old and New Testaments appears to be different. What in the Old Testament gives you "a trust in the consistency of God's character" as concerns the Old Testament? The only constant seems to be that God is very demanding and that you may be killed by him if you're an Israelite and do something bad (like try to keep the Ark of the Covenant from falling), or if you're not of tribes of Israel and are still breathing when they come around. If these are not the constants, what are they? Concerning your example of raping five-year-olds, what is God's plan or sign of his goodness when he lets Moses order the death of all the remaining male children and non-virgin girls in Numbers 31? I just finished rereading Numbers, so this example is fresh in my mind. It doesn't say God told Moses to do this, but it also doesn't say anywhere that God refused the 32 virgin girls offered to him (what did he do with them, by the way?), or that he punished Moses for ordering the unnecessary deaths of the boys and non-virgin women. You seem to emphasize in your blog that the Old Testament makes for an interesting, exciting albeit "weird" story. Do you believe there's a point to this story? What are the "answers" you get from the violent actions of God in the Bible? It seems like you admit that the Old Testament is weird and violent, but that you believe it's okay because we just have to trust God knows what he's doing. What indication do we have of this?
I Am The Blog - site with blog, news, links and other
information for atheists and other freethinkers (agnostics, skeptics, etc.)
Last Edited By: Anon 07/07/09 08:28:41.
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Svlad Cjelli |
#20 | |||
But it goes hand in hand with a trust in the consistency of God's character, and the expectation that he wouldn't suddenly tell you to do something arbitrary like rape five year olds (I'm presuming that was a random example, rather than something you think comes from the Bible?). There's the command by God to Moses & Co. to wipe out the Midianites. Kill all the males and non-virgins, but keep alive all the women who haven't known men for themselves. This would mean all newborn girls through early teens. Now, whereas this isn't exactly raping five year olds, killing a five year old's parents then forcing her to marry one of those that slaughtered her family at some later date comes pretty close in my book. |
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