8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this in SAQ Forum

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NannyG123

8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this

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Posts: 501

Apr 10 08 10:32 AM

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Yes.
The koran allows girls before they have reached puberty to divorce their husband.
And this little girl overcame all sorts of obstacles to do so.
Her father beat her because she didn't want to marry the 30-year-old man.
The man raped her repeatedly, going against the law of sharia which states a wife should be ''ready'' for sex (maybe having reached Aisha's age of 9).
http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2
An eight-year-old girl decided last week to go the Sana'a West Court to prosecute her father, who forced her to marry a 30-year-old man.

Nojoud Muhammed Nasser arrived at court by herself on Wednesday, April 2, looking for a judge to handle her case against her father, Muhammed Nasser, who forced her two months ago to marry Faez Ali Thamer, a man 22 years her senior. The child also asked for a divorce, accusing her husband of sexual and domestic abuse.

According to Yemeni law, Nojoud cannot prosecute, as she is underage.
.....

"My father beat me and told me that I must marry this man, and if I did not, I would be raped and no law and no sheikh in this country would help me. I refused but I couldn't stop the marriage," Nojoud Nasser told the Yemen Times. "I asked and begged my mother, father, and aunt to help me to get divorced. They answered, 'We can do nothing. If you want you can go to court by yourself.' So this is what I have done," she said.

Nasser said that she was exposed to sexual abuse and domestic violence by her husband. "He used to do bad things to me, and I had no idea as to what a marriage is. I would run from one room to another in order to escape, but in the end he would catch me and beat me and then continued to do what he wanted. I cried so much but no one listened to me. One day I ran away from him and came to the court and talked to them."

"Whenever I wanted to play in the yard he beat me and asked me to go to the bedroom with him. This lasted for two months," added Nasser. "He was too tough with me, and whenever I asked him for mercy, he beat me and slapped me and then used me. I just want to have a respectful life and divorce him."
.....
Thamer is in jail now. "Yes I was intimate with her, but I have done nothing wrong, as she is my wife and I have the right and no one can stop me," he said.
.....
"So far there is no case and no charges, as Nojoud arrived by herself to court asking just for a divorce," said Shatha Ali Nasser, a lawyer in the Supreme Court who is following Nojoud Nasser's story.

Shatha Ali Nasser confirmed that item number 15 in Yemeni civil law reads that "no girl or boy can get married before the age of 15." However, this item was amended in 1998 so parents could make a contract of marriage between their children even if they are under the age of 15. But the husband cannot be intimate with her until she is ready or mature," said Nasser.
.....

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Yark Hutprancer

#1

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Posts: 5167

Apr 10 08 1:03 PM

No one here cares about the Quran, moron.

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NannyG123

#2

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Apr 10 08 2:18 PM

Yark Hutprancer wrote:
No one here cares about the Quran, moron.

Is that because you (collectively) are yellow-bellied?

Anyone can come out with a Jesus in piss, an elephant-dung Mary, a gay Last Supper, transvestite ''nuns'' or whatever, knowing they are ''safe.''

But even quote the koran in a book or movie or in court, even call Mo what he really was: a liar, a thief, a pedophile, a rapist and a death fatwa can come down on your head.

Heck, Canada's Ottowa Human Rights' Commission will even prosecute these "offenders" for muslims.

The UN has made an international law against disparagement of Islam.

And dhimmi status can be imposed on someone or self-imposed......like in your case.

If you are a "skeptic" why limit your skepticism to kind believers?

Why not be skeptical of the ones who will take your head off, rape your mate and raise your babies as their own?

The best defense against islamization of the world is widely rebutting their main book, the koran.

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Argy Lacedom

#3

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Posts: 4483

Apr 10 08 6:21 PM

The UN has made an international law against disparagement of Islam.

It's actually against disparagement of all religion. Although I believe it was sponsored by mainly Islamic groups.

I think all religion should be called for what it is; superstition. And anyone making religious claims (like eternal damnation, resurrection, reincarnation, faith healing, etc.) should be forced to prove it before they are allowed to preach it.

I also think teaching religion should be banned for children under the age of 18 - wait until they're old enough to make their own decisions. DO you agree??

Human thought, left unconstrained by the need to corroborate with reality, creates fantasy worlds that bear no relationship to it.

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NannyG123

#4

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Apr 10 08 7:44 PM

I think that in the 57 countries of the OIS you might be branded an apostate or blasphemer or heretic for talk like that.
Guess what they do to apostates, heretics and blasphemers?

Muhammad Al-Munajid: Some of these heretics say: "Islam is not the private property of anyone." So what do they want? They say: "No sect has a monopoly on Islam." So what do they want? They say: "We want to issue rulings." Someone who is ignorant, who does not know any Arabic, or who has no knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence wants to issue rulings?! They say: "We reinterpret the texts." There is a very dangerous conspiracy against the religion of Islam in newspapers and in what these people say. A journalist, or one of those lowlifes, wants to... These people are a mixture of Western, local, and imported ideologies, but they want to express their views with regard to religious rulings. This is the prerogative of religious scholars, not of ignorant people, the prerogative of knowledgeable people, not of fools or heretics.

The problem is that they want to open a debate on whether Islam is true or not, and on whether Judaism and Christianity are false or not. In other words, they want to open up everything for debate. Now they want to open up all issues for debate. That's it. It begins with freedom of thought, it continues with freedom of speech, and it ends up with freedom of belief. So where's the conspiracy? They say: Let's have freedom of thought in Islam. Well, what do they want? They say: I think, therefore I want to express my thoughts. I want to express myself, I want to talk and say, for example, that there are loopholes in Islam, or that Christianity is the truth. Then they will talk about freedom of belief, and say that anyone is entitled to believe in whatever he wants... If you want to become an apostate - go ahead. Fancy Buddhism? Leave Islam, and join Buddhism. No problem. That's what freedom of belief is all about. They want freedom of everything. What they want is very dangerous.

Freedom of thought, within some constraints, is blessed. Islam calls for thinking, for interpretation, and for the use of the mind. But as for freedom of heresy, which allows anyone to criticize whatever he wants in Islam, saying, for example, that he does not like the punishment for apostasy, that he doesn't like the punishment for drinking alcohol, or that he does not like the punishment of stoning adulterers - this is barbarism. They ask: Why should a thief have his hand chopped off? Some of them say that this is "too much." Two-three much on you and your rotten mind. If you abolish this punishment, you will see the rise in thefts. On the other hand, people feel their property is secure because of this punishment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am not paternalistic, like you.

I don't want to force other parents to do what I would do, or what you think they ought to do.

This little 8-year old girl knew innately that she was being mistreated even if the Koran and the law of Yemen didn't give any member of her family the strength to do the right thing and come to court along with her.
Side note:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_re_af/islamic_summit_islamophobia

The Muslim world has created a battle plan to defend its religion from political cartoonists and bigots.
Concerned about what they see as a rise in the defamation of Islam, leaders of the world's Muslim nations are considering taking legal action against those that slight their religion or its sacred symbols. It was a key issue during a two-day summit that ended Friday in this western Africa capital.

The Muslim leaders are attempting to demand redress from nations like Denmark, which allowed the publication of cartoons portraying the Prophet Muhammad in 2006 and again last month, to the fury of the Muslim world.

Though the legal measures being considered have not been spelled out, the idea pits many Muslims against principles of freedom of speech enshrined in the constitutions of numerous Western governments.

"I don't think freedom of expression should mean freedom from blasphemy," said Senegal's President Abdoulaye Wade, the chairman of the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference. "There can be no freedom without limits."

Delegates were given a voluminous report by the OIC that recorded anti-Islamic speech and actions from around the world. The report concludes that Islam is under attack and that a defense must be mounted.

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Argy Lacedom

#5

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Apr 10 08 8:36 PM

I think that in the 57 countries of the OIS

What's the OIS?

Whatever it is my questions weren't directed to them, they were directed to you.

1) Don't you think it would be wise to wait until children are old enough to make decisions for themselves before introducing them to religion?

2) Don't you think religious organisations should be made to be accountable for the pronouncements they make?

Human thought, left unconstrained by the need to corroborate with reality, creates fantasy worlds that bear no relationship to it.

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NannyG123

#6

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Apr 11 08 7:28 AM

OIS is the Organization of Islamic States and wields the most power in the UN of any bloc.
I answered you question.
I am not paternalistic towards other people's children like you are.
Thus I am opposed to telling parents how to raise their own children, unlike you.
Parents are given the responsibility to raise children and they (and their children) either suffer or are blessed by how wisely they carry that out.

In this country church and state are separate.

Who would you have form that oversight committee to hold religions accountable for their pronouncements without making them subject to the state?

Muhammad Al-Munajid, who I quoted above, and most Islamic scholars, certainly wouldn't respect the oversight of what he openly calls every one else, Muslim or not, in the rest of the world: lowlifes, people who are a mixture of Western, local, and imported ideologies, ignorant people, fools, heretics, people who want to become apostates.

Catholics have their Holy See, they wouldn't accept oversight from outsiders, either.

The dali lama is here in the USA. He represents....what?...Buddhism? Some Buddhists, anyway. Does he even tell all Buddhists what to say or think? (I honestly have no idea)

You need to think your idea through.
Their is no controlling legal authority in the USA over all religions. There is freedom of/from religion.
There is one controlling legal authority over religion in communist China....how's that working for the people....the slaves?

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Malkut

#7

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Apr 11 08 2:36 PM

NannyG123 wrote:

The UN has made an international law against disparagement of Islam.

Psh, the UN. Call me when someone important does so.

Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

-Chapterhouse: Dune

***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.

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corwin17

#8

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Posts: 1838

Apr 11 08 7:53 PM

In this country church and state are separate.

...

There is freedom of/from religion.

Are you ignorant or just self delusional?

Just this last week, my own city had voted to cram religion down our throats by displaying our nation's motto, which in turn was crammed down out throat 50 years ago. Click here

Also here's a list of other California cities that have done this, too:

San Clemente

Cypress

Westminster

Mission Viejo

Tustin

Artesia

Hawthorne

Carson

Paso Robles

Oceanside

Victorville

Compton

Bakersfield

There was a recent headline on Fox (since gone and I can't find it) that was "Democrats find Religion on Religion". What little I read of it was the fact the Democrats are taking after the Republican and wearing their religion on thier sleeve courting voters with promises of 'getting back to the moral founding of the country' {single quote because it's my paraphrasing of their statement}.

Then there's the following from the past/present/future:

- Moral Majority from the 80s

- Family Research Council and its ilk

- opposition to same sex marriage

- abstinence only sex education

Don't even get me started on the idiots on Kansas' Board of Education!

All of these are examples of government forcing religion on us, organizations trying to get government to force religion on us, or government official using religion to get elected.

It was disgusting the religious litmus test the public and media used on Mitt Romney over his Mormonism. But in my book, he shot himself in the foot when he came flat out and said "Good government requires religion."

No, government doesn't require religion ... but getting elected does. :barf

"Ah! Arrogance and stupidity all in one package. How efficient of you." -- Londo Mollari
"Put your face in the book." -- G'kar
If you can't laugh at yourself, I'll do it for you! ;)
We now return you to your regularly scheduled dementia.

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Argy Lacedom

#9

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Apr 11 08 8:35 PM

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Thus I am opposed to telling parents how to raise their own children, unlike you.

What is wrong with giving children the opportunity to make up their own minds about which religion they will follow? Dawkins believes that foisting religion on minors is brainwashing - and I can't help but agree with him.

What's wrong with making religions accountable for their claims? Why shouldn't they be forced to tell the truth and demonstrate their truths with evidence?

Human thought, left unconstrained by the need to corroborate with reality, creates fantasy worlds that bear no relationship to it.

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curcat

Re: What's the OIS?

#10

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Apr 13 08 4:43 AM

Argy,

I think Nanny is intending to refer to the OIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Islamic_Conference).

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curcat

#11

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Posts: 114

Apr 13 08 5:12 AM

Nanny,

You wrote to another poster:
"...Thus I am opposed to telling parents how to raise their own children, unlike you.
Parents are given the responsibility to raise children and they (and their children) either suffer or are blessed by how wisely they carry that out..."

You initiated the thread by posting the article, relating to Quran 65:4, about the 8-year-old girl in Yemen who tried to divorce the husband she was coerced into marrying. I'm guessing you would not be opposed to telling the parent(s) of this girl how to raise their children?

My view: There are times when the state needs to intervene, such as when laws are broken. Of course, the laws in this Yemen case are the problem--it should not be permitted for the child to get married. International pressure is needed against Yemen and other countries that allow this practice of men marrying (and then raping) child-brides.

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NannyG123

#12

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Posts: 501

Apr 13 08 9:47 AM

Argy Lacedom wrote:

Thus I am opposed to telling parents how to raise their own children, unlike you.
What is wrong with giving children the opportunity to make up their own minds about which religion they will follow? Dawkins believes that foisting religion on minors is brainwashing - and I can't help but agree with him.

What's wrong with making religions accountable for their claims? Why shouldn't they be forced to tell the truth and demonstrate their truths with evidence?

Would you go into a capital of one of the Islamic countries and preach that idea?

Or are you only interested in stopping Christianity?

(I mean, Christians might want to raise their children in some faith but they rarely will murder that child for not choosing to follow it later in life.)

It is so safe to stand in a free country and spout such liberal ideals.

.

(And, yes, I did confuse the two front organizations for an Islamic caliphate, one is the OIS and works independently, the other is the one that works through the UN. One has 57 member nations while the other has 53)

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NannyG123

#13

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Posts: 501

Apr 13 08 9:52 AM

curcat wrote:
Nanny,

You wrote to another poster:
"...Thus I am opposed to telling parents how to raise their own children, unlike you.
Parents are given the responsibility to raise children and they (and their children) either suffer or are blessed by how wisely they carry that out..."

You initiated the thread by posting the article, relating to Quran 65:4, about the 8-year-old girl in Yemen who tried to divorce the husband she was coerced into marrying. I'm guessing you would not be opposed to telling the parent(s) of this girl how to raise their children?

My view: There are times when the state needs to intervene, such as when laws are broken. Of course, the laws in this Yemen case are the problem--it should not be permitted for the child to get married. International pressure is needed against Yemen and other countries that allow this practice of men marrying (and then raping) child-brides.

Actually, curcat, both the Yemeni law and the koran were ignored in this case!

The law of Yemen says a girl must be 15.

In the koran a baby can be ''married," but only "thighed" until she is old enough to be "ready" for sex (in the koran that appears to be age 9.)

So this girl was treated criminally both by Yemeni law being broken AND by the ideals of the koran that her husband wait until she was ''ready'' before having intercourse with her.

(I put quotes around ''ready'' as that is an English translation for it and some muslims might quibble that there are nuances in Arabic that allow wiggle room.)

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curcat

#14

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Posts: 114

Apr 13 08 12:30 PM

Nanny,

According to the article, as I understand it, the marriage was within Yemeni Law because the parents arranged it...

"Shatha Ali Nasser confirmed that item number 15 in Yemeni civil law reads that "no girl or boy can get married before the age of 15." However, this item was amended in 1998 so parents could make a contract of marriage between their children even if they are under the age of 15. But the husband cannot be intimate with her until she is ready or mature," said Nasser.""

As you note correctly, the Quran doesn't give a lower age limit for the marriageable age of girls. However, it does not directly give an age limit such as 9 years of age for (sexually) "consummating" the marriage. As you probably know, the age of 9 is inferred from the Hadith, as a general guideline, because of Muhammad's consummation of his marriage to Aisha. The guideline is reinforced indirectly due to Quran 33:21 and other verses that state or imply that Muhammad's conduct is exemplary, to be followed by believers. Yet even 9 years of age is not a hard lower limit, because neither Muhammad nor the Quran forbids sex with younger girls. Indeed, either Umar or Uthman--I can't recall which of those "rightly-guided" caliphs--married a four-year-old girl. Moreover, the Hadith state that "enjoyment" of the "private parts" is part of the marriage contract. (Note the 8-year-old girl's statement in the article that she did not know what marriage entailed). The only restrictions from the primary texts, as you note, are vague statements about whether or not the girl is "ready" or, as a hadith puts it, can "take it." Regarding "thighing" and sexual acts with underage girls, some Islamic opinions on this are quoted in Sam Shamoun's article
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

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Argy Lacedom

#15

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Apr 13 08 3:55 PM

Would you go into a capital of one of the Islamic countries and preach that idea?

Or are you only interested in stopping Christianity?

O don't care for any religion. I am interested only that children are not brainwashed. Let them be free of all religious teachings until they are able to make up their own minds.

(I mean, Christians might want to raise their children in some faith but they rarely will murder that child for not choosing to follow it later in life.)

Boy, you have a distorted idea of Islam don't you? Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Have you seen first hand how they relate to their children?

Human thought, left unconstrained by the need to corroborate with reality, creates fantasy worlds that bear no relationship to it.

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NannyG123

#16

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Posts: 501

Apr 13 08 9:09 PM

Thanks for all the details, curcat.
I had company this weekend, was kind of busy.

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NannyG123

UPDATE

#17

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Posts: 501

Apr 15 08 3:54 PM

UPDATE:

Tuesday, 15 April 2008

Second Grader Granted Divorce In Yemen

Breitbart:

A Yemeni court on Tuesday granted a divorce to an eight-year-old girl whose unemployed father forced her into an arranged marriage this year, saying he feared she might be kidnapped.

"I am happy that I am divorced now. I will be able to go back to school," Nojud Mohammed Ali said, after a public hearing in Sanaa's court of first instance.

Her former husband, 28-year-old Faez Ali Thameur, said he married the child "with her consent and that of her parents" but that he did not object to her divorce petition.

In response to a question from Judge Mohammed al-Qadhi, he acknowledged that the "marriage was consummated, but I did not beat her." ...

Nojud was a second grader in primary school when the marriage took place two and a half months ago.

"They asked me to sign the marriage contract and remain in my father's house until I was 18. But a week after signing, my father and my mother forced me to go live with him."

Nojud's father, Mohammad Ali Al-Ahdal, said he had felt obliged to marry off his daughter, an act he claims she consented to...

Dressed in traditional black, Nojud said she would now go to live in the home of her maternal uncle and did not want to see her father.

The girl's lawyer, Shadha Nasser, said Nojud's case was not unique. "I believe there are thousands of similar cases," she said, adding that civil society groups are pressing parliament to set the minimum age for marriage at 18.

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NannyG123

#18

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Apr 20 08 12:25 PM

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Argy Lacedom wrote:Boy, you have a distorted idea of Islam don't you? Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Have you seen first hand how they relate to their children?

I do know......do you?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BEGGING_FOR_ISLAM?SITE=COBOU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Most of the boys - 90 percent, the study found - are sent out to beg under the cover of Islam, for among the cruelest facts of Coli's life is that he was not stolen from his family. He was brought to Dakar with their blessing to learn Islam's holy book.

In the name of religion, Coli spent two hours a day memorizing verses from the Quran and over nine hours begging to pad the pockets of the man he called his teacher.

It was getting dark. Coli had less than half the 72 cents he was told to bring back. He was afraid. He knew what happened to children who failed to meet their daily quotas.

They were stripped and doused in cold water. The older boys picked them up like hammocks by their ankles and wrists. Then the teacher whipped them with an electrical cord until the cord ate their skin.

There are 1.2 million Colis in the world today, children trafficked to work for the benefit of others. Those who lure them into servitude make $15 billion annually, according to the International Labor Organization.

It's big business in Senegal. In the capital of Dakar alone, at least 7,600 child beggars work the streets, according to a study released in February by the ILO, the United Nations Children's Fund and the World Bank. The children collect an average of 300 African francs a day, just 72 cents, reaping their keepers $2 million a year.

Boy flees Islamic school that makes beggars of African kids

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8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 10 08 10:32 AM	NannyG123
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 10 08 1:03 PM	Yark Hutprancer
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 10 08 2:18 PM	NannyG123
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 10 08 6:21 PM	Argy Lacedom
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 10 08 7:44 PM	NannyG123
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 10 08 8:36 PM	Argy Lacedom
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 11 08 7:28 AM	NannyG123
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 11 08 7:53 PM	corwin17
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 11 08 8:35 PM	Argy Lacedom
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 13 08 9:47 AM	NannyG123
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 13 08 3:55 PM	Argy Lacedom
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 20 08 12:25 PM	NannyG123
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 13 08 5:12 AM	curcat
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 13 08 9:52 AM	NannyG123
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 13 08 12:30 PM	curcat
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 13 08 9:09 PM	NannyG123
Re: What's the OIS?	Apr 13 08 4:43 AM	curcat
Re: 8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this	Apr 11 08 2:36 PM	Malkut
UPDATE	Apr 15 08 3:54 PM	NannyG123

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8-year-old files for divorce....the koran 65:4 allows this

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