I am a Christian and i dont claim to know everything about Mormonism but... i do want to ask how you can believe both the bible and the book of mormon when they totally contradict each other. they dont add up. "whoever adds to the book will be added to the lake of sulfur" type thing. all of a sudden, a guy who was already known to be a liar (Mr. Joseph Smith Jr.) translates heiroglyphics into a new book using special glasses. He translated it into an old english type of language. all the thees thous and ye's. that wouldnt add up. The bible was written in the language of the time, why would the translation he made be in the language of a time long gone? God doesnt speak in like that. why would that be the only way to translate the bible or the book of Mormon?
| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 padawan3000
|
Mormonism... it doesnt add up |
Lead | ||
|
Posts: 26 03/30/05 15:52:58 |
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Badsidhe |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #1 | ||
|
Posts: 3190 03/30/05 16:17:21 |
Quote: Same way a Christian can believe different books of the bible when they totally contradict eachother. Contradictions don't matter. Logic doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that you believe. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
BookMark My Words |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #2 | ||
|
Posts: 522 03/30/05 21:34:57 |
Quote:You do realize that 'the books' didn't exist in the form sold in your local bookstore until a few hundred years after Christ's time, right? Depending on which 'don't add' reference you're using, it can be taken, in Revelation, to be a stricture against THE Book of Revelation. The author couldn't have meant The Books, as found in every motel room, as that book wasn't there to refer to. The other such rule i can think of is Old Testament. Depends on how you look at it, i think it says that you can add divinely inspired scripture to the litany, but nothing else. Or, you can't add new stuff at all, which would make the entire New Testament bogus. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
padawan3000 |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #3 | ||
|
Posts: 26 03/31/05 08:54:01 |
The contradictions in the bible, although there may be a few, i doubt the translators were divinly inspired, most of these 'contradictions' just require an in depth look at the surroundng passages or a look at the history of the passages. i look up every one of the contradictions on here and i think i know how they aren't contradictions to 95% of them. Faith is not enough friends. It will never be enough. Even the Demons believe and shudder.
And the adding to the book... well if the New testament said that, then the new testament wouldnt be included. but ok, forget that part. thats alright. but, How come there are documents to prove that the Old and New Testaments are not simply made up for whatever purposes (and dont say their arent. the fact that they were all written at different times by different authors proves this) but there is no proof of the tablets that Joseph Smith found at all? And if Jesus saves sins for all times, but if you're a mormon you get a better place in heaven, why would God not institute the book of Mormon whenever it happened? instead of waiting a good 1800 years. As a matter of fact, there is no proof of any of the tribes or anything in the book of Mormon. No traces of any of them. thats kinda odd dont you think? while archaeologists are discovering all these old testament cities and artifacts, the book of Mormon has not been verified by anything at all. Just Joseph Smith's word. who by the way was not afraid in the presence of an angel, when anyone else who had ever seen one was terrified? i dont think so. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Badsidhe |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #4 | ||
|
Posts: 3190 03/31/05 09:47:51 |
Every justification and rationalization you give whenever an atheist addresses problems with your religion, is the same exact justification and rationalization a Mormon gives, or a Muslim gives, when anybody addresses a problem with their religion.
You are doing the exact same thing that they do. So, whenever you wonder to yourself "why do they think their religion is true and others are false", just ask yourself, "why do I think my religion is true and others are false", and you will answer your own question. Do you understand this idea? |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Malkut |
Did anyone else see that South Park. . . . | #5 | ||
|
Posts: 6988 03/31/05 10:45:48 |
the one that told the story of the Mormons. That made me laugh.
Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances, . . . and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." - St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" quote, criticize quote, criticize What kind of malevolent disease are you? -One of Dickweed Zero's Alternate Personalities |
|||
|
|
||||
|
BookMark My Words |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #6 | ||
|
Posts: 522 03/31/05 11:14:38 |
Quote:I think you meant, differnt times and sources AND they agree with each other? Miracle of Editing. The various scrolls put forth for inclusion in the New Testament were weighed against the Articles of Faith created in the Council of Nicea in 310 or so. Books that agreed with the basic benchmarks of christain theology were included, those that didn't weren't. Doesn't say anything about the author or the author's intent (as they were a few hundred years posthumous), just means that the human councils of Trent figured they fit the profile for what they thought the Church should believe. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
padawan3000 |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #7 | ||
|
Posts: 26 03/31/05 15:08:42 |
Actually, Books that agreed with Christian theology were not the requirements for the books to be put in the Bible. The requirements were if the author seemed to speaking from God or from themselves. as well as the important stuff that they though everyone would need to know. They didnt sit down and decide what would fit their religion best. they sat down and decided which books would best tell the world the good news.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Yark Hutprancer |
Re: Did anyone else see that South Park. . . . | #8 | ||
|
Posts: 3770 03/31/05 16:44:56 |
It was awesome!
Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum... I wish they weren't (marginal) Christians so they could do one about Christianity. "[But] the important thing is to, first of all, question everything you read or hear or see or are told. Question it. And try to see the world for what it actually is, as opposed to what someone or some company or some organization or some government is trying to represent it as, or present it as, however they've mislabeled it or dressed it up or told you." - George Carlin |
|||
|
|
||||
|
tBCfC |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #9 | ||
|
Posts: 74 03/31/05 20:50:58 |
Regardless of how the selection was made, it was a choice made by fallible humans with political agenda to push.
______________________________________________________
All colours will agree in the dark. -- Francis Bacon either you are open to the truth, or you remain a Christian - Frank28 |
|||
|
|
||||
|
BookMark My Words |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #10 | ||
|
Posts: 522 03/31/05 21:12:04 |
Quote:And how did they determine that? Why was Thomas' book excluded, while 'long boring geneologies' were included, despite stricture in the scripture to ignore such things? |
|||
|
|
||||
|
FastHack |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #11 | ||
|
Posts: 3381 04/01/05 00:57:06 |
Quote:You shouldn't argue contradictions in the BoM forum, but feel free to start a thread in the contradictions forum if you feel up to the challenge. Quote:So you side with James and contradict Paul? Quote:Some of the Christian Bible is made up, some of it isn't. Quote:How does variation of authors and eras prove that the topics in several books aren't made up? Quote:There are 10 people who signed their names in blood as witnesses to these tablets. You have their word, why isn't that good enough for you? Quote:You shouldn't go around second guessing God.. Why didn't God figure out a better way to get his people out of Egypt rather than killing off innocent babies? Quote:There is no proof for Abraham. No proof for Moses or the Exodus. There is only one peice of evidence of David and Jerusalem at the time of David was nothing more than a tribal village. Quote:Odd indeed.. See, you have some skepticism in you. The question is, why is the Bible any better? Quote:Archaeology is far from confirming the Old Testament. Like I said, they confirmed that David existed, but he would have ruled over a tribe of nomads rather than a vast national kingdom. Quote:Don't forget his 10 witnesses! Quote:Lots of people claim to commune with spirits and are not afraid. So is this the test of a valid spirit contact? When one is afraid? ____________________________________
If God inspired men to write the Bible without error, why did He not inspire men to copy it without error? If God miraculously inspired writers to perfection, not inspiring copyists renders the whole point moot. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
padawan3000 |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #12 | ||
|
Posts: 26 04/01/05 15:18:08 |
Actually, there is proof about many Biblical characters. If you went on an expidition to the bottom of the Red Sea, you would find Chariot Wheels and Pieces of Armor. But why would a whole bunch of Armor and Weapons be on the bottom of the Red Sea? unless of course, the Red Sea had came apart and swallowed up the Egyptian Army... There are records of King Hezekiah. The City of Ninevah was discovered. The Old Testament has been verified has fact. nothing in the book of mormon has.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Malkut |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #13 | ||
|
Posts: 6988 04/01/05 16:01:15 |
Quote: They found an entire suit of armor and a licence plate in the belly of a shark once. That doesn't mean he swallowed a knight driving to work. There is a train in the Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Carolina. Strange stuff gets found in the water. That a bunch of common tools and wheels were found somewhere is not shocking. Quote: Never heard this one before, would have to look it up. Quote: So was the city of Troy. Does that mean the Illiad is verified? Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances, . . . and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." - St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" quote, criticize quote, criticize What kind of malevolent disease are you? -One of Dickweed Zero's Alternate Personalities |
|||
|
|
||||
|
FastHack |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #14 | ||
|
Posts: 3381 04/01/05 22:26:03 |
Quote:Link me an article from a peer reviewed archeology journal proving the existence of any character prior to David. Quote:Really? This is an astonishing find. Perhaps you have some references to back this up? Quote:Like I said, show us your references. Also, ships in peril often dump their cargo, but I doubt you have any references to back up these claims to begin with. Quote:But he was LONG after David. The New Testament is almost worse since the central would-be historical figure is completely absent in extra-christian history. Quote:I don't recall anyone ever saying that Assyria didn't exist. Quote:Far from it my friend. Like I said, some of it is made up and some of it isn't. You've yet to offer anything that I don't already know except for some highly dubious claims about chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea. You also haven't made a good case why the Bible is any better than Joseph Smith's tales. Quote:But you've got 10 witnesses who swear! Kinda like 4 gospel writers who swear its the truth! ____________________________________
If God inspired men to write the Bible without error, why did He not inspire men to copy it without error? If God miraculously inspired writers to perfection, not inspiring copyists renders the whole point moot. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Badsidhe |
padawan3000 acting out the answer to his question | #15 | ||
|
Posts: 3190 04/02/05 07:22:21 |
padawan3000, I hope you are noticing that your behavior in this thread exactly mirrors the behavior of an adherent to any other religion, such as Mormonism.
To answer your question, "How can Mormons believe this?", all you have to do is answer "they do exactly what I do to support their belief in their religion". Every answer and tactic you use is also used by Mormons. Mormons think they are being reasonable and logical when they address questions such as these, and you think you are being reasonable and logical with your answers. Do you see a parallel yet? |
|||
|
|
||||
|
padawan3000 |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #16 | ||
|
Posts: 26 04/02/05 13:22:59 |
What is logical about believing in God? for many there isnt anything logical about it, they do it out of faith. While i believe in God out of faith, i see a logical reason to believe in God. Just as i see a logical reason to believe in the Bible, but no logical reason to believe in the book of Mormon. Maybe nobody understands the inner workings of a Christian mind but Christians, so im going to TRY, note the key word Try, to put it in a way non-christians could understand.
So i'll do it one question at a time. Why would God take the tablets back from Joseph Smith, but leave the Dead Sea Scrolls and other forms of the ancient Bible? |
|||
|
|
||||
|
blue the sound |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #17 | ||
|
Posts: 246 04/02/05 13:30:20 |
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but haven't you previously argued that your god doesn't want to remove free will?
How do you know it was your god who left the scrolls? Wouldn't a perfect being clean up after themself? |
|||
|
|
||||
|
padawan3000 |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #18 | ||
|
Posts: 26 04/02/05 13:30:36 |
Quote: There is more proof that there was a Jesus Christ who went around performing miracles and preaching then there is that there was a Marcus Aeralius. And if you dont believe the claim about The chariot wheels and stuff at the bottom of the ocean, go read any Egyptian history book. it will include the story of how the Egyptian Army (which was at the time the strongest in the world) was reduced to nothing in the matter of a day because of the Red Sea. Egypt ceased being a world power that day. Why would that be unless The Red Sea really did collapse on the army? 4 writers wrote stories about Jesus, and those are the ones in the bible, there were several that didnt make it into the Bible. but , if Joseph Smith is correct, only 1 person recorded everything that happened then. there was nobody else? that seems kinda fishy... |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Malkut |
Re: Mormonism... it doesnt add up | #19 | ||
|
Posts: 6988 04/02/05 13:35:20 |
Quote: And that is? Didn't I just do a post on here a while ago comparing the proof for Jesus to the proof for Gaius Julius Ceasar? How did that come out? Quote: I have never read a single history book written in the last sixty years that contains any reference to this. There is no evidence of it ever happening. Nor would Egypt send every single soldier they had at the time after a bunch of run-away slaves. Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances, . . . and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." - St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" quote, criticize quote, criticize What kind of malevolent disease are you? -One of Dickweed Zero's Alternate Personalities |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Malkut |
Another thing to consider. . . . | #20 | ||
|
Posts: 6988 04/02/05 13:39:40 |
Many of the earliest Christ cults didn't believe in Jesus the man, but rather as a celestral being that was cruxified in Heaven. Or they worshipped the sun, or John the Baptist. If Jesus was a real man, he didn't leave much of an impact until long after he was gone.
Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances, . . . and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn." - St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" quote, criticize quote, criticize What kind of malevolent disease are you? -One of Dickweed Zero's Alternate Personalities |
|||
|
|
||||
