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Nessa T83	Scientific Discourse in the Quran		Lead	[-]
Posts: 10 08/07/05 15:14:58	Tags : None This too was not covered in the website. Some say that the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was the "founder" of islam. But how can a man who could neither read nor write speak ACCURATELY of Science? Where could he have gotten this marvelous "information" from if not from a divine source? Here are the links to the scientific discourse in the Quran. www.themodernreligion.com/verses_sci.htm (edited to add) www.islam-guide.com/ As far as I have seen, no other Holy Scripture even comes close. Peace be upon you
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Yark Hutprancer	Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4004 08/07/05 19:48:37	*Quote:* As far as I have seen, no other Holy Scripture even comes close. HAHA! Christians say the same thing about their holy book. "...the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make him out to be." - Unknown
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Nessa T83	Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 08/07/05 20:17:53
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Nessa T83	Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 08/07/05 20:23:26	Mm.... where they right though? After going through Genesis and reading about Lot doing funky stuff with his two girls, I thought it best to watch some porn and be done with it.
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Badsidhe	Precluding the conclusion?	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3190 08/07/05 20:23:29	*Quote:* Where could he have gotten this marvelous "information" from if not from a divine source? A: Advanced space aliens B: Satan C: 24-Hour Psychic Hotline D: Greece E: Out of body experience F: Time machine So many other places he could have gotten the information from. Was there a reason you settled on one source as being "proof", before you even knew what all the options were?
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Nessa T83	Re: Precluding the conclusion?	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 08/07/05 20:24:35	Here's a penny for your efforts. Try harder next time.
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Ba al Zebhubh	Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1072 08/07/05 20:25:03	Scientific discourse like the following article, Did God Use Evolution To Create the Universe? *Quote:* The theory of evolution, as known, claims that inorganic chemical compounds came together by chance and as a result of randomly occurring natural phenomena, they formed first the building blocks of life and ultimately life. Consequently, in its core, this claim accepts time, inorganic matter and chance to be creative powers. Even the layman, who is somewhat acquainted with the literature of evolution, is aware that this is the basis of the claims of evolutionists. ... God did not create living beings through an evolutionary process. How scientific of the Qur'an. I did enjoy the abiogenesis-for-evolution bait & switch, though. - Ba`al "Thus shall ye think of all the fleeting world: A star a dawn, a bubble in a stream; A flash of lightning in a summer cloud; A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream." - Buddha
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Nessa T83	Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 08/07/05 20:29:48	Socrates said something along this line "Everything must come from something. But at one point in time, that something must come from nothing." Something to contemplate on perhaps.
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Ba al Zebhubh	Evolution v. Abiogenesis	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1072 08/07/05 20:49:52	And Socrates was a 5th century BCE philosopher. He also was reputed to have said, "I think I do not know what I know." Nonetheless, the website confuses abiogenesis with evolution. The two are different theories. And this on a site that claims to tout the scientific accuracy in the Qur'an? Not only does it confuse these, but it procedes to deny evolution. For the case for abiogenesis, please see these files from TalkOrigins. - Ba`al "Thus shall ye think of all the fleeting world: A star a dawn, a bubble in a stream; A flash of lightning in a summer cloud; A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream." - Buddha
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Nessa T83	Re: Evolution v. Abiogenesis	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10 08/07/05 21:00:32	Okay. I'll read up a little on it and get back to you. Thanks for the clarification.
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Ba al Zebhubh	Re: Evolution v. Abiogenesis	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1072 08/07/05 21:01:34	Appreciate your candor. Look forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Ba`al "Thus shall ye think of all the fleeting world: A star a dawn, a bubble in a stream; A flash of lightning in a summer cloud; A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream." - Buddha
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Badsidhe	Re: Precluding the conclusion?	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3190 08/07/05 21:06:33	*Quote:* Here's a penny for your efforts. Try harder next time. I feel it is more important to address a person's ideas, than to tell somebody he is inadequate and then ignore his statements. Teach me how to fish, so I can catch my own dinner. Don't just tell me I'm a bad fisherman. Do you have any specific objections to my proposed ideas? Perhaps you can reasonably prove one or more of them wrong?
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Ba al Zebhubh	On "Interstellar Galactic Material"	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1072 08/07/05 21:20:49	Here's the link to the 'scientific' revelation - that the Qur'an talks about interstellar galactic material. As the site itself notes, "this mention in the Qur'an 'may surprise the twentieth century reader of the Qur'an.'" Color me intrigued. The entire explication is then based off of several verses which are stock pieces of praise, e.g. "He Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between, in six days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): Allah Most Gracious: ask thou, then, about Him of any acquainted (with such things)." It takes this general statement as, and I shit you not, evidence that Mohammed knew about interstellar galatic material - for those of you scratching your heads, the author helpfully explains: "Scientists tell us that a primary nebula condensed, then divided up into fragments. These fragments, these galactic masses, further split up into stars and their sub-products, the planets. Each time such a division or split occurred, there remained extra material apart from the principal elements newly formed. The scientific name for these extra materials is `interstellar galactic material'." Ok. Now, reading that verse at face value, one would think that everything between the heaven and the earth would to an 8th century person mean just what you and I think it means: the sky. It's like saying Allah owns everything "under heaven." We still even use the phrase. It just means everything under the sun. Another stock phrase, that. However, even discounting this, think about the actual phrase and the claim made on the website. Isn't Heaven space? So wouldn't interstellar galatic material be included in heaven? Unless, of course, you think that heaven is heaven. But then how can something be between heaven and earth, unless heaven is some how on top of earth? Like, I don't know, 40 miles above the sky? [/quote]Again, we must face up to the implication of all this. How could a man living fourteen hundred years ago have known about interstellar galactic material? Was Muhammad, on whom be peace, well versed in modern astrophysics? Or is the Qur'an nothing but the Word of God?[/quote] He didn't, no and no, respectively. - Ba`al "Thus shall ye think of all the fleeting world: A star a dawn, a bubble in a stream; A flash of lightning in a summer cloud; A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream." - Buddha
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Ba al Zebhubh	""On the ongoing process of creation"	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1072 08/07/05 21:31:04	Taking these two verses out of context: *Quote:* [16:8] ...and He creates other things beyond your knowledge... [24:45] ...Allah creates what He wills... These two verses, among others, indicate that Allah has not 'finished' creation; rather, it is an ongoing process. This is very significant from a scientific point of view because we are gradually beginning to observe and understand certain natural phenomena which are still in a process of formation. One prime example is our observation of still- emerging galaxies from huge clouds of nebulae. Another is the evolution of species, with its associated evidence of strange and exotic "intermediate" life forms turned into fossils. Wait a sec, didn't the other part of this website just deny evolution? Second, evolution is not creation. Evolution is evolution. Creation is creation. Second, saying that Allah creates things is really not that big leap of an imagination, as a matter of fact, saying that God created the world and everything in it, but then doesn't continue to create things, would be tantamount to heresy. I did have a big chuckle over "strange and exotic 'intermediate' life forms turned into fossils, though. Any 'spooky' skeletons? Maybe some weird trees? - Ba`al "Thus shall ye think of all the fleeting world: A star a dawn, a bubble in a stream; A flash of lightning in a summer cloud; A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream." - Buddha
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Ba al Zebhubh	"The Sun & Moon Move With Their Own Motion"	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1072 08/07/05 21:38:42	Link here. *Quote:* The Qur'an makes the following statement about the sun and the moon: "Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40). I was right about to correct the author on completely mistranslating that verse, but he does it for me in the next paragraph. *Quote:* The phrase "travelling with its own motion" in the verses quoted above is a translation of the arabic verb `yasbahoon'. This could also be translated `they swim.' In that case, the verse would read that the sun and the moon, "Each swim in its own orbit." Those who translate the verse this way explain that the term swim refers to movement with one's own internally generated force. Furthermore the movement of a swimmer is graceful, measured, and smooth. This is a very fitting description for the movement of the stars and planets including the sun and the moon. So we've gone from "the sun and the moon travel with their own motion" to "the sun and the moon swim in their own rounded course." Swim, yes. Swimming requires swimming in, you know, something. Perhaps they're swimming along in the aether? I suppose "The sun and the moon swim" wouldn't look too scientific, though. This site, it seems, is grossly exagerrating these claims. I could probably find an equally number of 'astounding scientific claims' by expostulating some Greek myths, based on the sparse amount of context these verses are "swimming" in here. - Ba`al "Thus shall ye think of all the fleeting world: A star a dawn, a bubble in a stream; A flash of lightning in a summer cloud; A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream." - Buddha
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Yark Hutprancer	Trolls suck.	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4004 08/07/05 21:42:32	"...the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the mean and stupid God you make him out to be." - Unknown
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Waterrock	Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1168 08/16/05 12:08:21	Greetings Nessa T 83. In an earlier post, I examined the alleged scientifically advanced statements in the Quran. See p089.ezboard.com/fsabdisc...=170.topic . NT83: ... "But how can a man [Muhammad] who could neither read nor write speak ACCURATELY of Science?" Even if one interprets the pertinent texts in the Quran to mean that Muhammad could not read or write (and there are other viable interpretations, btw), we have just Muhammad's word for it (as presented in the Quran) that he could not read or write. NT83: "Where could he have gotten this marvelous "information" from if not from a divine source?" As I note in the material which you will find via the above link, he got his information from the Old Testament books, from rabbinical traditions, from plain evidence available to just about anyone, and from people he knew who had gotten formal educations. Perhaps it would be helpful to focus your claim about the scientific accuracy of the Quran on a specific text -- say, 37:6-10. From what source could Muhammad have gotten the idea that meteors are heavenly missiles that have been fired at trespassing devils who were attempting to eavesdrop on Allah and his angelic assistants? Waterrock
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Argy Lacedom	Re: Waterrock I love you	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3114 08/17/05 03:58:18	I love the way you can see the errors in the quran but are able to defend similar inconsistencies in the bible. I seem to recall you defending the OT passages describing the firmament or the waters under the earth. I also recall you defending the flood myth (or didn't you?). ________________________________________________________________________ Evolution is about mutation and sex. Intelligent Design is about metaphysics and sects. [P Morgenroth - Letters to the Age 13/8/05] William found that he now thought of prayer as a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms [ Terry Pratchet "The Truth"]
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angween	Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 24 09/05/05 03:49:42	[Qur'an 16:103] And indeed We know that they say: "It is only a human being who teaches (Qur`n) (to) him (Muhammad)." The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign [`Ajam], while this (the Qur'n) is a clear Arabic tongue.
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Waterrock	Muhammad's Teachers and Quran 16:103	#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1168 09/07/05 20:48:19	Greetings Angween ~ Let's look at this more closely. Muhammad's contemporaries were saying that ordinary people were sharing information with Muhammad. To oppose this idea, surah 16:103 seems to say, in effect, that the individuals who are being named as Muhammad's teachers speak foreign languages, while the Quran is in Arabic. But that does not diminish the force of what Muhammad's contemporaries were saying. Muhammad may have been able to translate from non-Arabic dialects into Arabic. Or, Muhammad's educated friends may have been able to speak Arabic as well as their native languages. This does not mean that Muhammad actually did get some knowledge from some of his friends, but I think it is obvious that one needs to do more than just say something like, "He couldn't have learned that stuff from Scholar X, since Scholar X speaks in Persian (or Aramaic, or whatever) and Muhammad is telling is this information in Arabic!" Suppose that I was able to speak only English. Suppose also that I have no training in chemistry, and that I have a French friend who is able to speak well in French and in English. My friend knows a lot about chemistry. Suppose also that I spend a week talking with this chemist friend. At the end of the week, I poetically describe, in English, several laws of chemistry. Then I claim that this was revealed to me by the archangel Gabriel. Suppose that someone objects, "Wait. You were with a friend who knows about chemistry. You got this knowledge from him." Then I say, "That is not correct. My friend speaks French. I have delivered these words to you in English. Therefore I could not have gotten this information from my friend." Does that sound like a persuasive case that I did not get the information from my chemist friend? In the grace of Jesus the Messiah, Waterrock
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angween	Re: Muhammad's Teachers and Quran 16:103	#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 24 09/08/05 18:57:58	Greeting Waterrock Thank you for sharing you oppinion about propet Muhammad. I dont know where the source about your story, if you have read Muhammad history before he became a prophet, maybe you can understand that Muhammad is a honest man that make every people in his town call him 'al-Amiin' (the honest), and work as an ordinary merchant in his khafilah (group of nomad merchant). As you can read about civilization on his time, you'll know that reading and writing is kind of an embarassing thing - people in that time more admire people who can tells story, tells poem, singing about other old story about king and stuff. Only a very few people can read that time. Other way to find if is true Quran is a book copied from others, by comparing what Quran tells about something with other old scripture telling the same thing. For example about human birth, what old Greek science tells about this. and what Quran tells about this. Little thing that contain in Quran: - Al-Alaq (Quran 96:1-5), the first 5 revelation for Muhammad. al Alaq literally means 'something which cling'. Old schollar/translator get confused by this and write it as 'clot' (thick coagulated blood). I dont know if there is any old scientis that use mini-microscope, put it in mother's womb, find this clinging thing, and write a book about this. and then Muhammad copied and create Quran. - Iron, please see Quran 57:25. Old translator use '..We created iron..' the literall meaning of it is '..we sent down iron..'. Old translator also confused for what is the meaning of 'sent down iron', is it from the sky that droped to earth? Yes, its true that iron is not from earth, it was sent down from meteorits million years ago. Correct me if im wrong. - The returning sky, (Q 86:11), old translator translate it as '..sky which gives rain..'. literally its mean 'sky which returns (send back down)'. If Muhammad copied this from other scholar, I believe radio wave have been invented at that time. - Quran 4:56, about God change/create new skins to make them (disbelieved) can taste the punishment. Its interesting, why this verse point '..new skins, to make them taste punishment'. Are they only feel hurt as long their skins still there? How bout the other part, are they can't sense pain? I'm limitted, also poor in English, if there are something wrong then its my fault. The truth is only belong to Allah. Thank you for reading.
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Scientific Discourse in the Quran	08/07/05 15:14:58	Nessa T83
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	08/07/05 19:48:37	Yark Hutprancer
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	08/07/05 20:23:26	Nessa T83
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	08/07/05 20:17:53	Nessa T83
Precluding the conclusion?	08/07/05 20:23:29	Badsidhe
Re: Precluding the conclusion?	08/07/05 20:24:35	Nessa T83
Re: Precluding the conclusion?	08/07/05 21:06:33	Badsidhe
Trolls suck.	08/07/05 21:42:32	Yark Hutprancer
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	08/07/05 20:25:03	Ba al Zebhubh
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	08/07/05 20:29:48	Nessa T83
Evolution v. Abiogenesis	08/07/05 20:49:52	Ba al Zebhubh
Re: Evolution v. Abiogenesis	08/07/05 21:00:32	Nessa T83
Re: Evolution v. Abiogenesis	08/07/05 21:01:34	Ba al Zebhubh
On "Interstellar Galactic Material"	08/07/05 21:20:49	Ba al Zebhubh
""On the ongoing process of creation"	08/07/05 21:31:04	Ba al Zebhubh
"The Sun & Moon Move With Their Own Motion"	08/07/05 21:38:42	Ba al Zebhubh
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	08/16/05 12:08:21	Waterrock
Re: Waterrock I love you	08/17/05 03:58:18	Argy Lacedom
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	09/05/05 03:49:42	angween
Muhammad's Teachers and Quran 16:103	09/07/05 20:48:19	Waterrock
Re: Muhammad's Teachers and Quran 16:103	09/08/05 18:57:58	angween
Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/09/05 00:09:31	Waterrock
Re: Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/09/05 04:24:05	angween
Muhammad, Salman, and Galen	09/09/05 22:09:52	Waterrock
Re: Muhammad, Salman, and Galen	09/10/05 03:08:11	angween
Muhammad's Statements and Their Sources	09/14/05 15:27:25	Waterrock
Re: Muhammad's Statements and Their Sources	09/14/05 16:14:59	angween
Closing Comments and an Interesting Link	09/15/05 06:49:06	Waterrock
Re: Closing Comments and an Interesting Link	09/15/05 17:46:58	angween
Re: Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/10/05 05:13:45	FireGarden
Re: Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/10/05 17:16:20	angween
Re: Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/11/05 04:50:32	FireGarden
Re: Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/11/05 19:20:55	angween
Re: Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/22/05 03:20:11	FireGarden
Re: Claims About Advanced Knowledge in the Quran	09/22/05 20:21:27	angween
Secret Knowledge	10/08/05 02:41:19	FireGarden
Old school Embyology	09/09/05 08:28:54	FireGarden
Re: Old school Embyology	09/10/05 07:28:16	FireGarden
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	10/14/05 03:24:20	John86
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	10/14/05 04:30:25	Yark Hutprancer
Re: Scientific Discourse in the Quran	10/14/05 11:24:34	MikeyV