Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me - Intolerance - All - The Skeptic's Annotated Bible Discussion Board - Message Board - Yuku

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Waterrock	Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me		Lead	[-]
Posts: 1168 09/07/05 22:59:36	Tags : None Q: In Matthew 12:30, Jesus says, He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. But in Mark 9:40 and Luke 9:50, Jesus says, He that is not against me is for me. A: Not quite. In Mark 9:40, Jesus says, He that is not against us is for us. And in Luke 9:50, Jesus says, He that is not against you is for you. (NRSV) (In the KJV, Luke 9:50 resembles Mark 9:40, saying He that is not against us is for us.) Given the different settings of the two sayings (in Mark and Luke, Jesus is commenting on someone who was -- successfully, it seems -- casting out demons in Jesus name), the claim of a contradiction here seems to be grounded in a misquotation. I dont see how a charge of intolerance can be sustained here. Jesus sure seems confident that He is right and others are wrong, but He is not denying them the ability to express disagreement with him. This particular statement does not even condemn such disagreement; it is merely an observation. What Jesus is expressing here is not intolerance, but conviction. Yours in Christ, Waterrock
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nonbeliever	Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 456 05/28/06 10:04:51	Mark 9:40 "He that is not against us is for us." Matt. 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me." Luke 9:50 "He that is not against you if for you" In the above quotes two different things are being said. He that is not against us is for us. It does not matter what you believe and you don't have to agree with Christianity as long as you are not against us. It gives a chance for harmony among people who do not agree on the basics. He who is not with me is against me means something totally different. That seems to mean that either you believe the same way I do and worship the way I do, or you are against me. There is no chance for harmony with this second quote. My question is Why did Matthew change the wording of this quote? Since Mark was written first and Matt. and Luke afterward then Matthew was the one to change the quote in the exact reverse and the meaning of the original. Was it Matthew who was the intolerant one? -------------------- Oh dear, says God, I hadnt thought of that, and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. ~ Douglas Adams
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ECas123	why do nonbelievers disregard context?	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1 08/22/07 06:30:58	The following verses are not in the same context. Mark 9:40 "He that is not against us is for us." Matt. 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me." In Mark there was a person doing miracles in Jesus' name. Jesus said "for no one who works a miracle in my name can soon after speak evil of me, for he is who is not against us is on our side". In Matthew, Jesus was being harassed by the Pharisees about his works being of the devil. He spoke about the fact that a house against itself cannot stand and was referring to God and the Devil, and how you have to be getting your power from one or the other. ....no contradiction
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normfromga	Matthew's a bigot?	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1 08/23/07 06:15:37	Then I guess Luke was too. He repeats the original quote at Luke 11:23
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One Brow	Re: why do nonbelievers disregard context?	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2279 08/23/07 06:53:22	*Quote:* ....no contradiction No one is claiming there is a contradiction there. We're just noting that Matthew's wording leaves little room for peaceful coexistence. ----------------------------- With formal systems, such as mathematics, you can have certainty and demonstrability, but not reality. With science, such as physics, you can have reality and demonstrability, but not certainty. With belief systems, such as Christianity, you can have reality and certainty, but not demonstrability. --HRG, on CARM (paraphrased with his approval) "Come now, and let us reason together"
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FastHack	Talk about disregarding context.	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3417 08/27/07 12:27:50	____________________________________ If God inspired men to write the Bible without error, why did He not inspire men to copy it without error? If God miraculously inspired writers to perfection, not inspiring copyists renders the whole point moot.
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savalro	The Spirit of Truth	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1 03/07/09 15:09:28	Believer's read God's Word and wait for Him to give the understanding. You may think there is error in the translation; but that may be your lack of belief in the One who said it. The Bible says that the devil blinds unbelievers, so if you are an unbeliever, the Word is not going to make sense to you. When you are born again, you receive the Holy Spirit, who will teacher you. Without the Holy Spirit, it would do no good for anyone to try to explain things to you. Unless you are earnestly seeking to know God and Jesus, why bother asking these questions?
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Akito		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 31 03/07/09 17:02:53	Believer's read God's Word and wait for Him to give the understanding. You may think there is error in the translation; but that may be your lack of belief in the One who said it. Are you sure the fact that perfect translation between languages throughout a 2000-page book is a near impossible attempt no matter how similar the two languages may be has nothing to do with it? The Bible says that the devil blinds unbelievers, so if you are an unbeliever, the Word is not going to make sense to you. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't it also indicate that God and Satan work together to blind people who they don't want to believe? Or was that Allah and Iblis? I forget which. Either way, I was formerly a Christian, so um... I can pretty much say that the Bible didn't make any more sense then than it does now. When you are born again, you receive the Holy Spirit, who will teacher you. Without the Holy Spirit, it would do no good for anyone to try to explain things to you. Unless you are earnestly seeking to know God and Jesus, why bother asking these questions? Well, one good reason, I suppose, is because religion is the driving force through history. Would you not want to understand what moves the leaders of your nation and rather or not it is GOOD for them to be moved by it? Unless you wish to blindly follow your leaders into death, then I'd probably say you wouldn't. However, the topic at hand is not of contradictions or translation errors. It's about intolerance in the Bible. Rather or not that quote can be considered intolerance is pretty vague. The context can't be judged too easily, but from a certain manner of thinking, I can truly see why people say it is intolerant. It doesn't leave any room for neutrality, which means... I'm against Jesus! ONOZ!! ;_____;
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savalro		#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2 03/17/09 18:53:13	When you study the Word, it should be to get to know God. I do not want to argue about which translation is right or which apostle is right. I do not study the Bible to become a know-it-all. I study to get to know Him. If you are studying the Bible to try to figure out why people fight, then I am afraid you are not getting the benefit of knowing Him. God knows you and He wants you to know Him. It is a personal relationship He desires. We need to stop using God's Word to beat people over the head with. As you get to know Him better, these confusions go away. God does not want us to be confused, but you have to give your heart to Him. That is, your whole heart. Have you ever done that? Let me ask you something. If a person said, "I love you with half my heart." Would you marry that person and live with him/her and tell him/her everything about yourself? I wouldn't. God isn't going to share intimate knowledge with someone who loves Him with half their heart.
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savalro	Intolerance	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3 03/17/09 19:03:05	Excuse me, did you just say that you are against God's Son? Why?
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One Brow		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2192 03/18/09 04:11:35	savalro wrote: Excuse me, did you just say that you are against God's Son? Why? When you respond to a specific post, use the quote link in the bottom right of the post. With formal systems, such as mathematics, you can have certainty and demonstrability, but not reality. With science, such as physics, you can have reality and demonstrability, but not certainty. With belief systems, such as Christianity, you can have reality and certainty, but not demonstrability. --HRG, on CARM (paraphrased with his approval) "Come now, and let us reason together" http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/
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One Brow		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2193 03/18/09 04:14:54	savalro wrote: When you study the Word, it should be to get to know God. Since God is nothing but a mythical creation people construct for themselves, I'll just eliminate the extra step and get to know myself. savalro wrote: God does not want us to be confused, but you have to give your heart to Him. That is, your whole heart. Have you ever done that? Back when I believed, many times. With formal systems, such as mathematics, you can have certainty and demonstrability, but not reality. With science, such as physics, you can have reality and demonstrability, but not certainty. With belief systems, such as Christianity, you can have reality and certainty, but not demonstrability. --HRG, on CARM (paraphrased with his approval) "Come now, and let us reason together" http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/
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Argy Lacedom		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2715 03/18/09 14:29:37	savalro wrote: When you study the Word, it should be to get to know God. ... As you get to know Him better, these confusions go away. God does not want us to be confused, but you have to give your heart to Him. That is, your whole heart. Have you ever done that?... I loved him so much that I offered myself to him in prayer many times. I asked him to make me whatever he wanted me to be. I am now an atheist. "It's as simple as this: If there is a god who is capable of making himself known to us and cares that we know him, there would never be a question of his existence."- Yark Hutprancer SAB DB
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wickle		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 37 03/18/09 15:20:18	"I asked him to make me whatever he wanted me to be. " The only conclussion is that if there is a god,it wanted you to disbelieve, (maybe be rational) , or , that there simply is no god of the bible kind.(the latter ,IMO, is a true blessing).
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busterggi		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 282 03/18/09 15:47:26	Of course we're meant to be atheists - its all part of the divine plan.
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wickle		#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 39 03/18/09 16:51:10	Amen! Who else would be around to be witness to mass insanity? Who would keep the believer buzy feeling smug? Best of all , there must be a boom on mental shoehorns, for forcing a phrase to say what it doesn`t say , making metphor out of distasteful actions(kill doesn`t mean KILL,it means reprove,love,or justice,etc), and time watchers doesn`t mean TIME watchers,it means watchers of time(or somesuch crap) ,rape isn`t evil when god demands it, and donkeys talk, and fruit holds the moral compass for 2 primitive humans,and,and and. Takes a mighty big shoehorn to pull all that off.
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busterggi		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 283 03/19/09 08:12:47	I'm willing to consider the talking donkey but the rest of the list is right out.
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savalro	This is no accident	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4 04/15/09 21:05:11	The world and everything in it -down to the smallest thing that cannot be seen- is far too complex to be an accident. I do not know why you think you can close your eyes and make God go away, but you are too old to be playing that game. And God doesn't buy it. He knows you, but you do not know Him. The first thing you need to do is acknowledge that He is and then give your life to Him and ask Him to save you. This is my question to you. What will your address be in eternity, heaven or hell? You need to chose while there is still time to do so. Time as we know it is running out, and Jesus is at the door waiting for the Father to tell Him to go get his bride. You can be ready or you can be left behind. It is your choice. Look around you. Read the newspaper. Listen to CNN. What do you see and hear? New World Order?? The dispensation of Grace is about to end, and believe me you do not want to be left behind. I am sorry to be so sharp. Maybe if I knew why you felt this way, I could be nice. What made you bury your faith? What happened? You know Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship. Being Catholic and studying other religions doesn't make you a Christian or a believer any more than your college degree in Math does. Are you getting my point? Please tell me why you are so angry with God. I'd like to pray for you.
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Rambo123UK		#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 877 04/16/09 01:20:55	The fact that you cannot conceive of any mechanism by which the universe, the earth and the life that inhabits it could have come about without the hand of a divine creator says much about you and nothing about us. One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Sir Winston Churchill --- Bible Babble
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busterggi	And ???	#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 335 04/16/09 04:01:32	savalro wrote: The world and everything in it -down to the smallest thing that cannot be seen- is far too complex to be an accident. I do not know why you think you can close your eyes and make Allah go away, but you are too old to be playing that game. And Allah doesn't buy it. He knows you, but you do not know Him. The first thing you need to do is acknowledge that He is and then give your life to Him and ask Him to save you. This is my question to you. What will your address be in eternity, heaven or hell? You need to chose while there is still time to do so. Time as we know it is running out, and Mohammad is at the door waiting for Allah to tell Him to go get his bride. You can be ready or you can be left behind. It is your choice. Look around you. Read the newspaper. Listen to CNN. What do you see and hear? New World Order?? The dispensation of Grace is about to end, and believe me you do not want to be left behind. I am sorry to be so sharp. Maybe if I knew why you felt this way, I could be nice. What made you bury your faith? What happened? You know Islam is not a religion; it is a relationship. Being Muslim and studying other religions doesn't make you a Muslim or a believer any more than your college degree in Math does. Are you getting my point? Please tell me why you are so angry with Allah. I'd like to pray for you. Just change the names & every religion is pretty much the same.
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One Brow		#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2237 04/16/09 04:05:03	savalro wrote: The world and everything in it -down to the smallest thing that cannot be seen- is far too complex to be an accident. On the contrary, accidental happenings tend to show more complexity than designed happenings. savalro wrote: This is my question to you. What will your address be in eternity, heaven or hell? After the first billion years or so, I doubt there will be a difference. savalro wrote: Time as we know it is running out, and Jesus is at the door waiting for the Father to tell Him to go get his bride. People have been saying that for a couple of thousand years. Meanwhile, I ammore concerned about what the world will be like for my children and grandchildren. savalro wrote: Please tell me why you are so angry with God. I'd have to believe God existed in order to be angry with him. Back when I was a believer, I was not angry with God, to my recollection. savalro wrote: I'd like to pray for you. If it brings you comfort, feel free. With formal systems, such as mathematics, you can have certainty and demonstrability, but not reality. With science, such as physics, you can have reality and demonstrability, but not certainty. With belief systems, such as Christianity, you can have reality and certainty, but not demonstrability. --HRG, on CARM (paraphrased with his approval) "Come now, and let us reason together" http://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/
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Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	09/07/05 22:59:36	Waterrock
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	05/28/06 10:04:51	nonbeliever
why do nonbelievers disregard context?	08/22/07 06:30:58	ECas123
Matthew's a bigot?	08/23/07 06:15:37	normfromga
Re: why do nonbelievers disregard context?	08/23/07 06:53:22	One Brow
Talk about disregarding context.	08/27/07 12:27:50	FastHack
The Spirit of Truth	03/07/09 15:09:28	savalro
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/07/09 17:02:53	Akito
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/17/09 18:53:13	savalro
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/18/09 04:14:54	One Brow
This is no accident	04/15/09 21:05:11	savalro
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	04/16/09 01:20:55	Rambo123UK
And ???	04/16/09 04:01:32	busterggi
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	04/16/09 04:05:03	One Brow
God is no accident either	04/16/09 15:09:48	Argy Lacedom
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	04/16/09 17:16:38	Hawker Hurricane
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	04/16/09 17:44:36	Argy Lacedom
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	04/17/09 15:55:48	Hawker Hurricane
busterggi	05/01/09 08:08:25	savalro
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	05/01/09 08:43:56	Morgan
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	05/01/09 08:46:27	wickle
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/18/09 14:29:37	Argy Lacedom
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/18/09 15:20:18	wickle
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/18/09 15:47:26	busterggi
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/18/09 16:51:10	wickle
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/19/09 08:12:47	busterggi
Intolerance	03/17/09 19:03:05	savalro
Re: Matthew 12:30 - You're With Me Or Against Me	03/18/09 04:11:35	One Brow