Yuku free message boards

Thanks for the greeting, Waterrock.

Waterrock: I'm not depending on "subtle deception." I'm just pointing out the different ways in which the word "temptation" is capable of being packed, and showing how such differences can and should affect how we understand Matthew 6:13 and some other passages.

I said you were using subtle deception, and I think you were, even if the deception was in part self-deception too. The difference you posit between temptation and test is false. Apparently, this false distinction is important because you want to believe there is a difference between God and the Devil. Thats fine, but you can hardly expect the rest of us to fall for such a silly logical twist just to believe some questionable thing about an invisible entity!

Waterrock: Sure; a situation of temptation can be an opportunity for some good to be accomplished, even if it is only the good of holding ones ground.

Thats what makes temptations and tests essentially synonymous. As I said, the two words are just two different judgment-laden words for the same thing. I suggest that the reason you suggested a subtle difference was that you sensed your argument would be silly without it, as it would be. But it still crumbles under scrutiny, unless faith remains, pretending to prop it up.

Waterrock: That is not what I meant when I referred to temptations that produce sin. I affirm that a choice is involved when a person successfully resists, or succumbs to, a temptation.

Again, that is what makes temptation by the Devil no different than a test from God. They are the same things. And that means that God does tempt and he lied when he said he doesnt.

Waterrock: Um .... "God is trying to see"??? What kind of half-blind God do you think I believe in?

Um, I dont know, what kind?

It is interesting that you use the term half-blind, actually. The gnostics conceived of the creator, Garden of Eden god alternatively as the Demiurge (half-maker i.e., clumsy craftsman) or Samael, the blind god.

But in any event, if God is not trying to see what the outcome of his test would be, why do it? It would make no sense otherwise. If he knows you will and already have the inner strength to resist temptation, what is the point? If he doesnt know the answer, his legendary powers of foresight are greatly exaggerated...and that leads to further problems for faith, doesnt it?

Waterrock: Hopefully I cleared up that this is not the case when I clarified that I do not believe that temptation, in and of itself, produces sin without any deliberation on the part of the individual. (A point which I thought would be pretty obvious to everybody, but apparently is not.)

Well, accomplishing clarity and merely smoothing over logical flaws in an attempt to hold together a silly idea are not necessarily the same thing. I'm sorry, but your answers are hardly sufficient. Its not your fault though, with the Bible and faith and beliefs you aint got much to work with. I sympathize with you in the challenge this presents.

Gnostically yours,