Diskeyezed ~
D: "Yet, Matthew doesn't say that Judas merely attempted to hang himself (but failed). It says that he hanged himself. Thus, the "usual resolution" is very flimsy (and that's an understatement)."
It just relies on readers' ability to discern that Matthew's description was not exhaustive. If a man were to be poisoned at 12:00, and then shot at 12:01, and he died at a hospital at 1:00, and no one performed an autopsy, people could fairly say "He was poisoned" and "He was shot." Matthew doesn't say "He hanged himself and this, and only this, immediately caused him to die."
D: "However, it would make little sense for the author of Acts to mention something that happened to a key character's corpse while totally ignoring his death. What historian would do that?"
One who had limited sources about the event he was mentioning. But I don't grant that Judas is a "key character" for Luke. Plus, if "prehnhs" is, as I've indicated, a technical term for "swollen up," the the natural understanding that Luke's readers may have had when reading Acts 1:18 would be similar to what a modern reader has when reading, "As Farmer Frank was decomposing in the field, vultures swarmed all over, and people have called that the Vultures' Field ever since." Simply by selecting the term "decomposing," I draw the reader into a scene in which Frank is already dead. Luke's use of "prhnhs genomenos" may have been intended to do the same thing.
D: "Yet even the ESV doesn't use "swelled up" in the text, does it?"
No. But I'm not claiming that any translation (even the ESV)is inerrant.
D: "A literal translation would be "becoming headlong.""
Not if "prenes" means "swelling-up!" Do we see Luke use such a phrase elsewhere to describe someone falling? I don't think so.
D: "The Greek term "prhnhs" (or "prenes") is defined by Strong's and Vine's as "headlong.""
Here's an abbreviation of the entry from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, p. 295, for "headlong" --
(1) "katakremnizo" signifies "to throw over a precipice" ("kata," down, "kremnos," "a steep bank," etc.), said of the purpose of the people of Nazareth to destroy Christ, Luke 4:29.
(2) "prenes," an adjective denoting "headlong, prone," is used with the verb "ginomai," "to become," in Acts 1:18, of the death of Judas, "falling headlong"; various suggestions have been made as to the actual details; some ascribe to the word the meaning "swelling up."
It looks to me like Vine's is rather uncommitted, though hesitant to explicitly reject a traditional rendering of the word. At least the "swelling up" definition is mentioned.
D: "In addition, Strong's indicates that "prenes" comes from the root "pro," which means "in front of." Now, "in front of" makes sense as a root for "headlong," but it does NOT make sense as a root for "swelling up.""
Not only is this a simply point of etymology word-origin, but I'm willing to question whether there's really anything to the connection that Strong makes.
D: "the Vine's listing makes no mention of the "swelling up" alternative in the definition, but relegates it to a post-definition note, saying that some suggest it as an alternate meaning ..."
When I compare the treatment of "prenes" to the treatment of other words, it sure looks like the alternative definition is in the main paragraph to me.
D: ... "The passage is describing Judas' death, not a post-death corpse event."
That's just a re-statement; similarly I will just re-state that Luke opens the scene in his parenthetical comment with Judas' swollen-up corpse in view.
D: "The text says nothing about gases, and the "swelled up" argument is highly suspect, as already noted."
The text doesn't say anything explicitly about the chemistry involved in Judas' swelling-up, granted, but *if* "prenes" means "having become swollen up," then the gases and fluids, etc., are in the picture.
D: "The typical reader of Acts would much more likely think that it's describing Judas' death than pointing out a post-death event while totally ignoring the actual death."
Not if "prhnhs genomenos" elicited the same sort of thought that "was decomposing" elicits.
D: "Frankly, I don't know why you'd place so much stock in one claiming that Judas was swollen to the point of being larger than a chariot. You may as well get your information from the National Enquirer."
As I mentioned, however mystifying Papias' comment may be in other respects, it's "at least a little bit relevant" because it refers to Judas as being swelled-up, which seems to be a trace of the early understanding of "prenes."
Yours in Christ,
Waterrock
D: "Yet, Matthew doesn't say that Judas merely attempted to hang himself (but failed). It says that he hanged himself. Thus, the "usual resolution" is very flimsy (and that's an understatement)."
It just relies on readers' ability to discern that Matthew's description was not exhaustive. If a man were to be poisoned at 12:00, and then shot at 12:01, and he died at a hospital at 1:00, and no one performed an autopsy, people could fairly say "He was poisoned" and "He was shot." Matthew doesn't say "He hanged himself and this, and only this, immediately caused him to die."
D: "However, it would make little sense for the author of Acts to mention something that happened to a key character's corpse while totally ignoring his death. What historian would do that?"
One who had limited sources about the event he was mentioning. But I don't grant that Judas is a "key character" for Luke. Plus, if "prehnhs" is, as I've indicated, a technical term for "swollen up," the the natural understanding that Luke's readers may have had when reading Acts 1:18 would be similar to what a modern reader has when reading, "As Farmer Frank was decomposing in the field, vultures swarmed all over, and people have called that the Vultures' Field ever since." Simply by selecting the term "decomposing," I draw the reader into a scene in which Frank is already dead. Luke's use of "prhnhs genomenos" may have been intended to do the same thing.
D: "Yet even the ESV doesn't use "swelled up" in the text, does it?"
No. But I'm not claiming that any translation (even the ESV)is inerrant.
D: "A literal translation would be "becoming headlong.""
Not if "prenes" means "swelling-up!" Do we see Luke use such a phrase elsewhere to describe someone falling? I don't think so.
D: "The Greek term "prhnhs" (or "prenes") is defined by Strong's and Vine's as "headlong.""
Here's an abbreviation of the entry from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, p. 295, for "headlong" --
(1) "katakremnizo" signifies "to throw over a precipice" ("kata," down, "kremnos," "a steep bank," etc.), said of the purpose of the people of Nazareth to destroy Christ, Luke 4:29.
(2) "prenes," an adjective denoting "headlong, prone," is used with the verb "ginomai," "to become," in Acts 1:18, of the death of Judas, "falling headlong"; various suggestions have been made as to the actual details; some ascribe to the word the meaning "swelling up."
It looks to me like Vine's is rather uncommitted, though hesitant to explicitly reject a traditional rendering of the word. At least the "swelling up" definition is mentioned.
D: "In addition, Strong's indicates that "prenes" comes from the root "pro," which means "in front of." Now, "in front of" makes sense as a root for "headlong," but it does NOT make sense as a root for "swelling up.""
Not only is this a simply point of etymology word-origin, but I'm willing to question whether there's really anything to the connection that Strong makes.
D: "the Vine's listing makes no mention of the "swelling up" alternative in the definition, but relegates it to a post-definition note, saying that some suggest it as an alternate meaning ..."
When I compare the treatment of "prenes" to the treatment of other words, it sure looks like the alternative definition is in the main paragraph to me.
D: ... "The passage is describing Judas' death, not a post-death corpse event."
That's just a re-statement; similarly I will just re-state that Luke opens the scene in his parenthetical comment with Judas' swollen-up corpse in view.
D: "The text says nothing about gases, and the "swelled up" argument is highly suspect, as already noted."
The text doesn't say anything explicitly about the chemistry involved in Judas' swelling-up, granted, but *if* "prenes" means "having become swollen up," then the gases and fluids, etc., are in the picture.
D: "The typical reader of Acts would much more likely think that it's describing Judas' death than pointing out a post-death event while totally ignoring the actual death."
Not if "prhnhs genomenos" elicited the same sort of thought that "was decomposing" elicits.
D: "Frankly, I don't know why you'd place so much stock in one claiming that Judas was swollen to the point of being larger than a chariot. You may as well get your information from the National Enquirer."
As I mentioned, however mystifying Papias' comment may be in other respects, it's "at least a little bit relevant" because it refers to Judas as being swelled-up, which seems to be a trace of the early understanding of "prenes."
Yours in Christ,
Waterrock
That has little to do with "hanged himself."
