WALRUS666 wrote:
Daystar, thanks for the response. I see that we're talking in circles on some of these issues and there's no point in going over them again. However, I noticed a couple of new points that you made and have a couple of questions for you. How could you possibly believe that GOD ALMIGHTY didn't know that Lucifer and Adam would sin? Secondly, like Buster, I'm a bit curious about the dead animal bit. You're not reading from the Daystar.pathwaymachine International Expanded version of the Bible, are you? Unfortunately, I have to cut this short. A thing called "work" is about to rear its ugly head.
Lucifer isn't Satan. Lucifer is a Latin word that means "light bearer", so the Latin Vulgate translates the Greek word Heosphóros meaning "bringer of dawn" from the Septuagint which in turn comes from the Hebrew word hehlel meaning "shinning one" as Lucifer. Since the KJV comes from the Latin Vulgate it uses the word Lucifer at Isaiah 14:12. The only place the word Lucifer appears as such in the Bible. Other translations also use the term Lucifer such as the Douay, An American Translation, Knox and Darby. The American Standard Version and Revised Standard Version use the term "Day Star" instead of Lucifer, Rotherham uses "Shining One" and Moffatt uses "shining star."
WHY?! You ask? Or was it who would possibly care? The answer, Walrus, is that Isaiah 14:12 actually applies, not to Satan, but rather in this case to the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar. The term is applied to him in the sense that he would bring about a figurative new day. He would destroy the earthly representation of Kings of Jehovah God. The "Daystar" or the "Morning Star" was a bright symbol of the coming dawn - a new day. Daystar, or morning stars were used because in certain seasons of the year they are the last to rise on the eastern horizon before the sun appears and so herals of the dawn of a new day.
Isn't that fascinating?! No? Oh, I think it is!
What the hell were we talking about? Just a second, I have to scroll . . .
Did God Almighty know that Satan (then not known by that name) and Adam would sin? The answer is no.
It is a difficult thing for a skeptic to accept, I know. Lets say you built a robot to your own standards and it, for no reason that you could foresee, fucked up. It isn't your fault. The trouble with that example is that you are not God Almighty and we are not robots, but that is sort of the point. God wouldn't have punished Adam for his own creation flaw. For something he knew Adam would do. God warned Adam of the possibility. From a logical and educated or even from a philosophical position I can see that but logic is a difficult thing to exercise when you have no point of reference. This is why I hate it when skeptics assume what God can do and how a perfectly created creature would act. But all of that is just something to think about. The real reason why I know that God didn't know that Adam or Satan would sin, or that that had to sin, is that Jesus was a perfect man who didn't sin. Part of his mission was to demonstrate this. There would be no point in his sacrifice to life everlasting on paradise earth as God originally planned for Adam if we would just fuck it up again. Jesus and, I might add, countless angels didn't sin. Adam didn't have to sin, and so it is possible that he didn't and we all wouldn't be subjected to all that sin brings. Death, sickness, natural disasters, etc.
As for the dead animals thing . . . 2 Peter 2:12 kind of points out that animals were not created as humans were, to live forever. No where in the Bible does it indicate otherwise. We can pretty much assume that Adam lived for a considerable amount of time before he sinned. There is, however, no reason to think that animals didn't die before he sinned.
