I've always thought that it was God who created sin in this world. Apparently, there was sin in this world prior to Adam & Eve eating the fruit. So,
I'd say that the creator of the world, The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the serpent is the guilty party. AIDS, War, Cancer, Poverty, Starvation,
Suicide, Depression, Child Molestation, Rape, Murder, and Death (to name a few), are the results of two beings eating some fruit!? I don't know about you
guys but if I was the creator I would have taken a pass at creating the serpent and this insidious tree! Have you ever seen any of those old black & white
movies? Man, people weren't too bright back then. Now imagine going back to Adam & Eve's time! It wouldn't surprise me to see them swinging
from the trees. In addition, Adam & Eve wouldn't have known that the serpent was lying to them (if indeed he was) because they had no knowledge of
evil, so they wouldn't even know what a lie was, until they ate the fruit! Even in our barbaric society, these beings would not be held responsible for
their actions and would not be punished but helped. Of course, I would question the ways that we'd try to help them, but nevertheless. Yep, I don't
give any credence to the Adam & Eve story.
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 WALRUS666 |
The First Sin | #1 | ||
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Posts: 8 02/23/09 14:01:11 |
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Daystar.pathwaymachine |
#2 | |||
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Posts: 320 02/24/09 06:52:41 |
WALRUS666 wrote: The Hebrew word ra is sometimes translated evil, so in the King James Version God created evil, but ra can also be translated as calamity or bad or ugly etc. Ra can mean justice through calamity. So when the KJV says God created evil what the original language actually conveyed was that God brought about calamity or disciplined sin. Sin means to miss the mark set by anyone. In the case of Adam sin was to reject the creator and deciding that he could judge what was good and what was evil. God didn't create sin. The serpent was an creature in the garden that was used by an angel to deceive Eve. The angel was the most beautiful of angels in heaven and had been given the charge of protecting Adam and Eve, but instead deceived them into thinking that they could judge what was good and what was bad. So AIDS, War, Cancer, Poverty, Starvation, Suicide, Depression, Child Molestation, Rape, Murder and Death, aside from being good material for Heavy Metal recording artists, was a product of man rather than God. Adam, by the way, did know that the serpent had lied to him because the creator had set down the truth before him and who was this serpent to say different? One of the things that Jesus did was to demonstrate that the perfect Adam didn't have to sin. When you compare Adam to anyone in our barbaric society you fail to appreciate that the earth had been given to Adam to do what he wanted and to just enjoy himself with only the stipulation that he keep in mind the obvious fact that his creator knew what was best for him and could give guidance and protection. Adam rejected that so the creator, Jehovah God, had very little choice but to let him have a go of it on his own. All of the things you mention above are a result of that, but, the creator will step in before man has destroyed all of it completely [looks at watch] and set it right only for those who would have better sense than Adam had. |
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WALRUS666 |
Response To Daystar | #3 | ||
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Posts: 10 02/25/09 03:06:24 |
Greetings Daystar, If the word "sin" in this case is used incorrectly in the KJV and the words "calamity" or "disciplined sin"
are the correct terms, then these terms should have been used instead. Surely, the Word of God shouldn't need support from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek
dictionaries or any other book or writings for that matter. The Word of God should stand on it's own and be perfect as God claims to be. The KJV is the
word of God, is it not? Even if "calamity or "disciplined sin" are the correct terms, these terms still suggest sin to me. How can one create
sin, calamity, and, or disciplined sin, without sinning? Which brings us to the beautiful angel that you mentioned. I take it that you were referring to Satan.
Wouldn't you consider it a sin to create a creature such as Satan? Bear in mind that God knew before he created this being that Satan would rebel against
him and cause every type of sin that you can imagine (and many that you can't), bringing the world to the brink of destruction. Yet, God created him
anyway! Quite frankly, If I knew that if I made love with my girlfriend tonight and as a result she was going to give birth to a son who would be responsible
for crashing an airplane into a building killing thousands of innocent people, guess what? I'm taking a cold shower instead! The kid will not be born. Free
will or not. So, if as you wrote "The serpent was an creature in the garden that was used by an angel to deceive Eve", wouldn't this deception be
considered a sin? It certainly sounds like a sin to me and of course it happened prior to Eve eating the fruit. So, in essence, I must conclude that there was
indeed sin in the world before Adam & Eve ate the fruit. Incidentally, I mentioned Aids, War, etc, as the result of eating fruit to show a comparison
between the crime and the punishment. By all means, the punishment does not fit the crime! You wrote "Adam, by the way, did know that the serpent had lied
to him because the creator had set down the truth before him and who was this serpent to say different?" Again, how would Adam & Eve know how to
differentiate between truth and lies if they didn't have a knowledge of good & evil? The serpent's so-called lies were evil, correct? If anything,
a lie could possibly confuse them a bit but they certainly wouldn't think to themselves "hey this dude is full of shit"! They wouldn't have
known what a lie was! At any rate, an amusing tale.
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Daystar.pathwaymachine |
#4 | |||
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Posts: 331 02/25/09 06:42:16 |
WALRUS666, the word evil is in the KJV where the word calamity is more accurate. There are two types of Bibles; versions and translations. The version is more
of a personal expression of the original language, in other words they put it in their own words where as a translation is a more literal attempt at capturing
the original language as best as possible. The first printings of the KJV actually had quotes from William Shakespeare within the text. They translate certain
animals like ox bull or goat into mythical creatures like unicorn, dragon and satyr. The KJV is also limited from a modern day perspective due to the old
language. A shamble then meant a meat market and now means a funny walk or mess. But even though the KJV is, in my opinion, the worst Bible there is, it is
still possible to get from it every thing you need to know about God's word. I once did a comparison study of the KJV with 5 other translations and there
was surprisingly (to me) little harm done by the KJV.
The KJV is an imperfect interpretation of God's word and there are no perfect interpretations. Critics of the Bible often say God's word should be clear to us without flaw or question and translation should be protected or insured by God himself but God allows us to translate his word as we think it should be translated, and we are imperfect but God is aware of this. The ancient Israelites who God dealt very closely with as well as the disciples of Christ were not perfect the same as we, but that isn't a problem. There isn't going to be a test where only the best interpretation passes it is simply a question of seeking knowledge (John 17:3) The beautiful angel who protected the garden of Eden was not created as Satan. He was created a perfect being and there was no sin in him, nor was his creation a sin. God didn't know beforehand that the angel later known as Satan (Satan is a Hebrew word which means adversary; devil is from the Greek di·a′bo·los and means slanderer or liar) would sin, nor that Adam would sin. The deception of the angel through the serpent was a sin, but this sin wasn't perpetrated by men. Only Adam, who was in charge of the earth, could have sinned and brought sin to everyone after him. If the angel had sinned by deceiving Eve but Eve didn't buy into it then there wouldn't have been a sin on her part. If Adam who was in charge had corrected Eve that wouldn't have been a sin for Adam and we wouldn't have inherited sin. If they had had a child before the sin and the child sinned and Adam corrected him we wouldn't have inherited sin. It was all up to Adam. You mention AIDS and punishment for a crime, but that is sort of an oversimplified example. It isn't so much a crime and punishment as it is a result of what happened. God created Adam and Eve and the Earth perfect. He only insisted that it was important that they, like children, listen to their creator. They rejected that and pushed him away. But they also raised a question; Is man capable of running things without the protection and guidance of the creator? In all fairness the creator had to allow this question to be answered. now God and I know that man will destroy God's creation if given the chance and that is what he is doing. But God won't allow his creation to be destroyed. Once the answer to the question is clear God will step in before that happens. WALRUS666 wrote: I think that you are probably accustomed to the fucked up version of the 'amusing tale' as presented by Xianity. Lets take a closer look - briefly. Adam was created and was surrounded by animals that died. He was told that if he didn't keep in mind the importance of the creator's guidance and protection, symbolized by the tree, he too would die. Eve came to him and he knew what she did was wrong, but he concluded that he would be the judge of what was good and what was bad or evil himself. He rejected God. God stepped back and said I can't have anything to do with that, you are on your own. I think you have a problem with the meaning of sin and the Hebrew word Ra which is translated as evil. Let me give an example of what this word really means in relation to what happened in Eden and what is meant by God having created Ra, translated evil or bad. In modern understanding. A child is told by his father to not play in the road or something very bad (evil from Ra) will happen. The mark has been set by the father. The child misses the mark (sin) by playing in the road anyway. The father sees him and disciplines him. To the child the discipline is bad (ra) so the father created something bad or evil or hurtful (Ra) to discipline the child from doing something worse (Ra). |
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busterggi |
Please quote where the bible says this | #5 | ||
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Posts: 228 02/25/09 15:24:02 |
"The beautiful angel who protected the garden of Eden was not created as Satan. He was created a perfect being and there was no sin in him, nor was his
creation a sin. God didn't know beforehand that the angel later known as Satan (Satan is a Hebrew word which means adversary; devil is from the Greek
di·a′bo·los and means slanderer or liar) would sin, nor that Adam would sin. The deception of the angel through the serpent was a sin, but this sin wasn't
perpetrated by men. "
Perfect beings supposedly don't sin And bible-god is an idiot not to know better. "Lets take a closer look - briefly. Adam was created and was surrounded by animals that died. " Another of your interpretations or can you actually quote the bible on this? I already know you can't but give it a try. |
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WALRUS666 |
Hello Buster | #6 | ||
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Posts: 11 02/26/09 03:45:54 |
"Perfect beings supposedly don't sin And bible-god is an idiot not to know better." Well, I guess that if perfect beings can sin then we can
expect Jesus to go to war with God and the Holy Spirit in an attempt to take the thrown for himself and set up an alliance with Satan.
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busterggi |
#7 | |||
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Posts: 230 02/26/09 06:14:56 |
According to the usual beliefs of Christians the NT overthrows the OT so it already happened & Yahweh is warming a seat next to Odin & the other
deposed gods.
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WALRUS666 |
#8 | |||
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Posts: 12 02/26/09 04:26:19 |
Daystar wrote: Daystar, thanks for the response. I see that we're talking in circles on some of these issues and there's no point in going over them again. However, I noticed a couple of new points that you made and have a couple of questions for you. How could you possibly believe that GOD ALMIGHTY didn't know that Lucifer and Adam would sin? Secondly, like Buster, I'm a bit curious about the dead animal bit. You're not reading from the Daystar.pathwaymachine International Expanded version of the Bible, are you? Unfortunately, I have to cut this short. A thing called "work" is about to rear its ugly head. |
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Daystar.pathwaymachine |
Daystar Is Lucifer! | #9 | ||
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Posts: 348 02/26/09 12:30:22 |
WALRUS666 wrote: Lucifer isn't Satan. Lucifer is a Latin word that means "light bearer", so the Latin Vulgate translates the Greek word Heosphóros meaning "bringer of dawn" from the Septuagint which in turn comes from the Hebrew word hehlel meaning "shinning one" as Lucifer. Since the KJV comes from the Latin Vulgate it uses the word Lucifer at Isaiah 14:12. The only place the word Lucifer appears as such in the Bible. Other translations also use the term Lucifer such as the Douay, An American Translation, Knox and Darby. The American Standard Version and Revised Standard Version use the term "Day Star" instead of Lucifer, Rotherham uses "Shining One" and Moffatt uses "shining star." WHY?! You ask? Or was it who would possibly care? The answer, Walrus, is that Isaiah 14:12 actually applies, not to Satan, but rather in this case to the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar. The term is applied to him in the sense that he would bring about a figurative new day. He would destroy the earthly representation of Kings of Jehovah God. The "Daystar" or the "Morning Star" was a bright symbol of the coming dawn - a new day. Daystar, or morning stars were used because in certain seasons of the year they are the last to rise on the eastern horizon before the sun appears and so herals of the dawn of a new day. Isn't that fascinating?! No? Oh, I think it is! What the hell were we talking about? Just a second, I have to scroll . . . Did God Almighty know that Satan (then not known by that name) and Adam would sin? The answer is no. It is a difficult thing for a skeptic to accept, I know. Lets say you built a robot to your own standards and it, for no reason that you could foresee, fucked up. It isn't your fault. The trouble with that example is that you are not God Almighty and we are not robots, but that is sort of the point. God wouldn't have punished Adam for his own creation flaw. For something he knew Adam would do. God warned Adam of the possibility. From a logical and educated or even from a philosophical position I can see that but logic is a difficult thing to exercise when you have no point of reference. This is why I hate it when skeptics assume what God can do and how a perfectly created creature would act. But all of that is just something to think about. The real reason why I know that God didn't know that Adam or Satan would sin, or that that had to sin, is that Jesus was a perfect man who didn't sin. Part of his mission was to demonstrate this. There would be no point in his sacrifice to life everlasting on paradise earth as God originally planned for Adam if we would just fuck it up again. Jesus and, I might add, countless angels didn't sin. Adam didn't have to sin, and so it is possible that he didn't and we all wouldn't be subjected to all that sin brings. Death, sickness, natural disasters, etc. As for the dead animals thing . . . 2 Peter 2:12 kind of points out that animals were not created as humans were, to live forever. No where in the Bible does it indicate otherwise. We can pretty much assume that Adam lived for a considerable amount of time before he sinned. There is, however, no reason to think that animals didn't die before he sinned.
Last Edited By: Daystar 02/26/09 12:40:35.
Edited 1 time.
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Rambo123UK |
#10 | |||
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Posts: 793 02/26/09 12:57:50 |
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double
the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Sir Winston
Churchill
--- Bible Babble 
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Hawker Hurricane |
#11 | |||
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Posts: 1758 02/26/09 18:21:22 |
I always felt sorry for Lucifer. I mean, here's this Roman God, directly connected to the Greek Titan Prometheus. Prometheus was known as "The
Friend of Mankind", for he was the one who when man was freezing cold, gave him fire. Now, he got the fire from the Sun, stealing it from Apollo against
Zues' orders, and so was punished for a long time by being tied down to a rock and having a eagle come eat his liver every day (it grew back). He was
eventually freed. Now here's a God who likes people. He suffered because he helped people. And now his name is attached with the ultimate evil. It just
isn't fair.
(For the record, to the Romans "Lucifer" was symbolized in the sky as the Morning Star, which we know is Venus. The Evening Star the Romans called Venus, which we know is also Venus. Seems the Romans, at least the peasantry, didn't realize that there was only one planet there. And Mercury got two names too, being known as Vulcan in the evening.) Aggressive Agnostic: I don't know, and you don't either! |
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busterggi |
Ass-uming | #12 | ||
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Posts: 233 02/26/09 19:29:55 |
"We can pretty much assume that Adam lived for a considerable amount of time before he sinned. There is, however, no reason to think that animals
didn't die before he sinned. "
We can also assume that Adam sinned on day one and that no animals died before that. There's no reason not to. |
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Daystar.pathwaymachine |
Ass-uming Wrong | #13 | ||
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Posts: 352 02/27/09 07:08:13 |
busterggi wrote: When I say I assume that Adam was around long enough to see animals die I do so for logical reason. Genesis 2:19, 20 indicates that Adam named all of the animals as they were brought to him, and he lived for an indeterminate amount of time before he had a helper in Eve. You think that all of the things that happened from Genesis 2:7 to the end of that chapter happened in one day? And you think the creationists are nuts! C'mon, man, pull yourself together! |
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Akito |
#14 | |||
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Posts: 6 02/27/09 10:09:36 |
Daystar wrote:If God can create the Earth in seven days, then I see no reason why Adam could not name them all in one day. Sure, he is human, but technically, Peter walks on water with Jesus in the New Testament, so naming every animal in one day seems like something believable from a Biblical standpoint. Plus, using "dying animals" as a justification doesn't really aid your point any when God specifically says that the animals only serve the purpose to serve man anyway. So seeing animals die would probably be like losing a completely expendable candy bar. |
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Rambo123UK |
#15 | |||
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Posts: 798 02/27/09 10:51:47 |
Dave doesn't believe that "day" is a literal meaning.
One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double
the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. Sir Winston
Churchill
--- Bible Babble
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busterggi |
biblical days my boy, biblical days | #16 | ||
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Posts: 240 02/28/09 07:44:40 |
Hey, its a biblical day!
You know, one of those ones that lasts as long as its convenient for interpretation. You use it that way all the time so why shouldn't I? |
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Hawker Hurricane |
#17 | |||
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Posts: 1759 03/01/09 19:07:21 |
busterggi wrote: "When I use a word, it means what I wish it to mean, no more and no less." - Humpty Dumpty, in Lewis Carrol's "Alice in Wonderland" Aggressive Agnostic: I don't know, and you don't either! |
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WALRUS666 |
#18 | |||
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Posts: 27 08/04/09 20:37:14 |
Daystar wrote: |
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