Hmmm... I like your reply, very straightforward and penetrating, but if I may....
You're a tad mistaken, my claim was not that I did not understand, but that the findings on micro and macro evolution do not support the theory of evolution as the origin of all species.
Very true, the Arabic language does have an origin, but it wouldn't make sense to use the Akkadian meaning as the Quran was revealed in Arabic, not Akkadian. As the Quran itself states, many times, aware of this fact.
Yusuf - 12
1. Alif Lam Ra. These are the Symbols (or Verses) of the Perspicuous Book.
2. We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an in order that ye may learn wisdom.
Ar Ra'd - 13
37. Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. Wert thou to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee then wouldst thou find neither protector nor defender against Allah.
An-Nahl - 16
102 Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth in order to strengthen those who believe and as a guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. 2141 2142
103 We know indeed that they say "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notable foreign while this is Arabic pure and clear.
Ha-Mim - 41
44. Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in a language) other than Arabic they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger) an Arab?" Say: "It is a guide and a healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not there is a deafness in their ears and it is blindness in their (eyes); they are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
Al-Ahqaf - 46
12. And before this was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy; and this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
So as the Quran makes clear in many many places that it was revealed in Arabic and not any other language "other than Arabic". I fail to understand why you would want to turn to Akkadian to understand the book, which quite categorically states that it is Arabic. Would you turn to Proto-English to understand what I'm saying when I'm clearly writing in Modern English? Seriously, would you? because that's how your logic seems to apply to me. You wouldn't seriously expect me to be using the proto-English definitions would you?
You don't think that bushes can burn? I can understand your criticism of spirit creatures and angels, but apparently bushes can burn. Furthermore, you seem to be seeping in Christian ideas into Islamic ones. Islam does not give a specific date to the earth, but it does denote that there has been a long time for it. We are taught that 124,000 prophets were sent to mankind. In only 6,000 years that would be more that 20 prophets per year. Whereas the Quran Denotes that prophet's were sent to individual nations.
Al-muminun - 23
44. Then We sent our messengers one after another. Whenever its messenger came unto a nation they denied him; so We caused them to follow one another (to disaster) and We made them bywords. A far removal for folk who believe not!
And the Quran also denotes that there was a long period of time where the was no human beings..
Ad-Dhar - 76
1. Has there not been over Man a long period of Time when he was nothing--(not even) mentioned?
So as you can see, Islam supports a rather old earth. I think your problem is that you know little to nothing about the Quran and Islam.
You see, that what you wrote up there confuses me, not only because of your lack of understanding of the English words "the", "problem", "here", "is", "your" and "interpretation", but also to the fact that you seem to have a very short term memory and in such you actually, quite bizarrely, confused me for yourself. As crazy as that sounds, perhaps you'll understand better when you go to the previous pages and read your own posts where you use the modern English understanding of the word "day" as evidence that "some stone age" (interestingly changed from your previous post's use of bronze age to describe it) book has less validity.
Please forgive me for suspecting gross hypocrisy on your part.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I always thought that you couldn't have Easter Bunny decorations and Santa Claus (Christmas?) decorations up at the same time because it would be a time paradox. The two festive seasons occur on entirely different times of the year...
I do believe the rest of your post is aptly dealt with by the Quran.
At Tauba - 9
20. Those who believe and suffer exile and strive with might and main in Allah's cause with their goods and their persons have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: They are the people who will achieve (salvation).
85. Let not their wealth nor their children please thee! Allah purposeth only to punish them thereby in the world, and that their souls shall pass away while they are disbelievers.
Al-Kahf - 18
32 Set forth to them the parable of two men: for one of them We provided two gardens of grapevines and surrounded them with date-palms: in between the two We placed corn-fields.
33 Each of those gardens brought forth its produce and failed not in the least therein: in the midst of them We caused a river to flow.
34 (Abundant) was the produce this man had: he said to his companion in the course of a mutual argument: "More wealth have I than you and more honor and power in (my following of) men."
35 He went into his garden in a state (of mind) unjust to his soul: He said "I deem not that this will ever perish.
36 "Nor do I deem that the Hour (of Judgment) will (ever) come: even if I am brought back to my Lord I shall surely find (there) something better in exchange."
37 His companion said to him in the course of the argument with him: "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust then out of a sperm-drop then fashioned thee into a man?
38 "But (I think) for my part that He is Allah my Lord and none shall I associate with my Lord.
39 "Why didst thou not as thou wentest into thy garden say: `Allah's Will (be done)! There is no power but with Allah!' If thou dost see me less than thee in wealth and sons
Al-Muminun - 23
55 Do they think that because We have granted them abundance of wealth and sons
56 We would hasten them on in every good? Nay they do not understand.
57 Verily those who live in awe for fear of their Lord;
58 Those who believe in the Signs of their Lord;
59 Those who join not (in worship) partners with their Lord;
60 And those who dispense their charity with their hearts full of fear because they will return to their Lord
61 It is these who hasten in every good work and these who are foremost in them.
And many other places in the Quran, which denote that the good of this world is from Allah, but is not always what he will bestow upon Muslims. We are taught that the prophet Muhammaed (Peace be upon him) experienced hardship and troubles all his life and at one point his followers were beaten and tortured for years. The Children of Israel suffered too, before Allah sent Musa (A), many many years later, to relieve them.
Al-Ankabut - 29
49. Nay here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
50. Yet they say [As you have, Mathew] "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The Signs are indeed with Allah: and I am indeed a clear Warner."
51. And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? [Like I have, Mathew] Verily in it is Mercy and Reminder to those who believe.
I do not believe that Allah sends signs to us anymore...
Al-Israa - 17
59. And We refrain from sending the Signs only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the She-camel: to the Thamud to open their eyes but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).
Besides, believing in flat earths and 6000 year old earths (although we don't believe in that at all) doesn't really do a lot of damage to humanity, sure it dampens scientific progress, but that's not something the earliest Islamic civilization was guilty of.
I'm happy to be able to educate you, but I'm sorry to say, but you haven't helped me at all. Your deductions are spurious at best and stem from exposure to Christian literature instead of Islamic ones. I'm perturbed by the low level of your logic and the emotional bias that swings here and there in your posts. I would make a suggestion to direct you on the path to improvement, but I honestly don't know where to begin. I can only say, try and read the Quran. It deals with most of the questions you have concerning it.
As I like to, I'll end with a verse from it.
Saba - 34
1 Praise be to Allah to Whom belong all things in the heavens and on earth: to Him be Praise in the Hereafter: and He is Full of Wisdom acquainted with all things.
2 He knows all that goes into the earth and all that comes out thereof; all that comes down from the sky and all that ascends thereto: and He is the Most Merciful the Oft-Forgiving.
3 The Unbelievers say "Never to us will come the hour": say "Nay! but most surely by my Lord it will come upon you by Him Who knows the unseen from Whom is not hidden the least little atom in the Heavens or on earth: nor is there anything less than that or greater but is in the Record Perspicuous:
4 That He may reward those who believe and work deeds of righteousness: for such is Forgiveness and a Sustenance Most Generous."
5 But those who strive against Our Signs to frustrate them for such will be a Penalty a Punishment most humiliating.
6 And those to whom knowledge has come see that the (Revelation) sent down to thee from thy Lord that is the Truth and that it guides to the Path of the Exalted (in Might) Worthy of all praise.
7 The Unbelievers say (in ridicule): "Shall we point out to you a man that will tell you when ye are all scattered to pieces in disintegration that ye shall (then be raised) in a New Creation?
8 "Has he invented a falsehood against Allah or has a spirit (seized) him?" Nay it is those who believe not in the Hereafter that are in (real) Penalty and in farthest Error.
9 See they not what is before them and behind them of the sky and the earth? If We wished We could cause the earth to swallow them up or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
P.S. Apparently there was one individual that declare that the earth was not a sphere according to the Quran, but it caused great embarrassment in the Muslim world and he later said that he was mistaken and the he didn't deny that the earth was round.
Directly from Wikipedia
It doesn't. This experiment only offers evidence of macro evolution and the generation of new genes from mutation. It's OK . You haven't got a science background so you are struggling already The evidence for evolution on life on earth comes from many sources including comparative gene mapping, mitochondrial DNA, anatomical morphological simularity statistics, the fossil record, environmental evidence and many other scientific areas of study. I studied anthropological pre-history and hominid evolution. You should buy yourself a couple of good books on the subject and then argue on specific issues rather than a global "I don't understand"
You're a tad mistaken, my claim was not that I did not understand, but that the findings on micro and macro evolution do not support the theory of evolution as the origin of all species.
Hmm I think you will find Akkadian pre-dates the Quranic Arabic and the word is taken from Akkadian, the language of Abraham. Therefore I think you really should be showing me the meaning of Yawm in Akkadian if you want to correct your flaws in your understanding of bronze age language and how the illiterate Mohomet tried to use them after hearing the tales of Abraham. (You do understand Abraham was before Mohomet and Mohomet was a messenger boy relating Abraham's stories? )
Thank you for showing me the 20th century meanings of the english word day and trying to apply it to a bronze age myth book written in another language. We do not do things like this science because it is really stupid and a waste of time.
Very true, the Arabic language does have an origin, but it wouldn't make sense to use the Akkadian meaning as the Quran was revealed in Arabic, not Akkadian. As the Quran itself states, many times, aware of this fact.
Yusuf - 12
1. Alif Lam Ra. These are the Symbols (or Verses) of the Perspicuous Book.
2. We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an in order that ye may learn wisdom.
Ar Ra'd - 13
37. Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. Wert thou to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee then wouldst thou find neither protector nor defender against Allah.
An-Nahl - 16
102 Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth in order to strengthen those who believe and as a guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. 2141 2142
103 We know indeed that they say "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notable foreign while this is Arabic pure and clear.
Ha-Mim - 41
44. Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in a language) other than Arabic they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger) an Arab?" Say: "It is a guide and a healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not there is a deafness in their ears and it is blindness in their (eyes); they are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
Al-Ahqaf - 46
12. And before this was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy; and this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
So as the Quran makes clear in many many places that it was revealed in Arabic and not any other language "other than Arabic". I fail to understand why you would want to turn to Akkadian to understand the book, which quite categorically states that it is Arabic. Would you turn to Proto-English to understand what I'm saying when I'm clearly writing in Modern English? Seriously, would you? because that's how your logic seems to apply to me. You wouldn't seriously expect me to be using the proto-English definitions would you?
You do not have to worry because you believe in burning bushes, spirit creatures, angels that float around delivering messages, a magic world that is only 6,000 years old. I doubt children really worry about Santa Claus either. Feel free to follow their example.
You don't think that bushes can burn? I can understand your criticism of spirit creatures and angels, but apparently bushes can burn. Furthermore, you seem to be seeping in Christian ideas into Islamic ones. Islam does not give a specific date to the earth, but it does denote that there has been a long time for it. We are taught that 124,000 prophets were sent to mankind. In only 6,000 years that would be more that 20 prophets per year. Whereas the Quran Denotes that prophet's were sent to individual nations.
Al-muminun - 23
44. Then We sent our messengers one after another. Whenever its messenger came unto a nation they denied him; so We caused them to follow one another (to disaster) and We made them bywords. A far removal for folk who believe not!
And the Quran also denotes that there was a long period of time where the was no human beings..
Ad-Dhar - 76
1. Has there not been over Man a long period of Time when he was nothing--(not even) mentioned?
So as you can see, Islam supports a rather old earth. I think your problem is that you know little to nothing about the Quran and Islam.
Thank you very much. I will always remember you as the person who quoted the modern english word for "Day" as evidence that some stone age myth book has more validity than "Harry Potter" or "the Illiad". Keep up the good work!
You see, that what you wrote up there confuses me, not only because of your lack of understanding of the English words "the", "problem", "here", "is", "your" and "interpretation", but also to the fact that you seem to have a very short term memory and in such you actually, quite bizarrely, confused me for yourself. As crazy as that sounds, perhaps you'll understand better when you go to the previous pages and read your own posts where you use the modern English understanding of the word "day" as evidence that "some stone age" (interestingly changed from your previous post's use of bronze age to describe it) book has less validity.
Please forgive me for suspecting gross hypocrisy on your part.
Is that similar to why you cannot have the Easter Bunny decorations up at the same time as Santa Claus decorations? What's the worst Allah is going to do....I'm mean he hasn't done anything that anyone has ever seen. He has watched his Palestinian children being murdered and starved..but hasn't lifted a finger....He has watch us European atheists improve our standard of living while millions of muslims are starving. Perhaps Allah prefers atheists. The evidence points that way....or perhaps he doesn't exist like the Christian /Jewish god doesn't exist.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I always thought that you couldn't have Easter Bunny decorations and Santa Claus (Christmas?) decorations up at the same time because it would be a time paradox. The two festive seasons occur on entirely different times of the year...
I do believe the rest of your post is aptly dealt with by the Quran.
At Tauba - 9
20. Those who believe and suffer exile and strive with might and main in Allah's cause with their goods and their persons have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: They are the people who will achieve (salvation).
85. Let not their wealth nor their children please thee! Allah purposeth only to punish them thereby in the world, and that their souls shall pass away while they are disbelievers.
Al-Kahf - 18
32 Set forth to them the parable of two men: for one of them We provided two gardens of grapevines and surrounded them with date-palms: in between the two We placed corn-fields.
33 Each of those gardens brought forth its produce and failed not in the least therein: in the midst of them We caused a river to flow.
34 (Abundant) was the produce this man had: he said to his companion in the course of a mutual argument: "More wealth have I than you and more honor and power in (my following of) men."
35 He went into his garden in a state (of mind) unjust to his soul: He said "I deem not that this will ever perish.
36 "Nor do I deem that the Hour (of Judgment) will (ever) come: even if I am brought back to my Lord I shall surely find (there) something better in exchange."
37 His companion said to him in the course of the argument with him: "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust then out of a sperm-drop then fashioned thee into a man?
38 "But (I think) for my part that He is Allah my Lord and none shall I associate with my Lord.
39 "Why didst thou not as thou wentest into thy garden say: `Allah's Will (be done)! There is no power but with Allah!' If thou dost see me less than thee in wealth and sons
Al-Muminun - 23
55 Do they think that because We have granted them abundance of wealth and sons
56 We would hasten them on in every good? Nay they do not understand.
57 Verily those who live in awe for fear of their Lord;
58 Those who believe in the Signs of their Lord;
59 Those who join not (in worship) partners with their Lord;
60 And those who dispense their charity with their hearts full of fear because they will return to their Lord
61 It is these who hasten in every good work and these who are foremost in them.
And many other places in the Quran, which denote that the good of this world is from Allah, but is not always what he will bestow upon Muslims. We are taught that the prophet Muhammaed (Peace be upon him) experienced hardship and troubles all his life and at one point his followers were beaten and tortured for years. The Children of Israel suffered too, before Allah sent Musa (A), many many years later, to relieve them.
Odd that the lord or all the world is so frightened that he will not show his face in public. He will not make direct contact with his own brethren, he will not directly attack his brethrens enemies, he will not help clean up environmental problems etc...As Lord's go this Lord is pathetic and should be sacked or overthrown as useless. No wonder humans have to vote in other humans into government....we'd be waiting for decades for Allah to even make a suggestion.More than decades actually, a day with Allah is a thousand years of what we reckon. An entire millennium almost passed between his sending of Isa (Jesus) and Muhammad (SAW). Also Allah doesn't just kill and destroy people for no reason. If you check the Quran you'll find that it wasn't until they killed prophets or rejected signs that Allah intervened himself. Allah says that his existence is self-evident.
Al-Ankabut - 29
49. Nay here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
50. Yet they say [As you have, Mathew] "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The Signs are indeed with Allah: and I am indeed a clear Warner."
51. And is it not enough for them that We have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? [Like I have, Mathew] Verily in it is Mercy and Reminder to those who believe.
I do not believe that Allah sends signs to us anymore...
Al-Israa - 17
59. And We refrain from sending the Signs only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the She-camel: to the Thamud to open their eyes but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).
You are actually educating me in a funny way. Arabic culture is one of the most educated cultures on the planet. Mathematicians like Ali Gb'her helped drag Europe out of the dark ages through their good work. Arabic and middles eastern culture is as important as any other culture on this planet......yet us Westerners and Arabic culture still suffers from fundamentalist loonies who believe in the flat earth, the 6000 year old and magic gods that don't actually do anything... Perhaps both cultures should buy a little island and stick all our fundametalist Christians, Muslims and Jews on it...and forget about them. We did it to the "Flat Eathers". Are you also a "Flat Earther"?I'm not sure where you get your information from, but Muslims generally don't believe in a Flat Earth. Muslims (not just Arabs, but Iranians, Africans and what you would call Russians helped out too) figured that the earth was round a long time ago. The Quran even contains allegories describing the earth as spherical.
Besides, believing in flat earths and 6000 year old earths (although we don't believe in that at all) doesn't really do a lot of damage to humanity, sure it dampens scientific progress, but that's not something the earliest Islamic civilization was guilty of.
I'm happy to be able to educate you, but I'm sorry to say, but you haven't helped me at all. Your deductions are spurious at best and stem from exposure to Christian literature instead of Islamic ones. I'm perturbed by the low level of your logic and the emotional bias that swings here and there in your posts. I would make a suggestion to direct you on the path to improvement, but I honestly don't know where to begin. I can only say, try and read the Quran. It deals with most of the questions you have concerning it.
As I like to, I'll end with a verse from it.
Saba - 34
1 Praise be to Allah to Whom belong all things in the heavens and on earth: to Him be Praise in the Hereafter: and He is Full of Wisdom acquainted with all things.
2 He knows all that goes into the earth and all that comes out thereof; all that comes down from the sky and all that ascends thereto: and He is the Most Merciful the Oft-Forgiving.
3 The Unbelievers say "Never to us will come the hour": say "Nay! but most surely by my Lord it will come upon you by Him Who knows the unseen from Whom is not hidden the least little atom in the Heavens or on earth: nor is there anything less than that or greater but is in the Record Perspicuous:
4 That He may reward those who believe and work deeds of righteousness: for such is Forgiveness and a Sustenance Most Generous."
5 But those who strive against Our Signs to frustrate them for such will be a Penalty a Punishment most humiliating.
6 And those to whom knowledge has come see that the (Revelation) sent down to thee from thy Lord that is the Truth and that it guides to the Path of the Exalted (in Might) Worthy of all praise.
7 The Unbelievers say (in ridicule): "Shall we point out to you a man that will tell you when ye are all scattered to pieces in disintegration that ye shall (then be raised) in a New Creation?
8 "Has he invented a falsehood against Allah or has a spirit (seized) him?" Nay it is those who believe not in the Hereafter that are in (real) Penalty and in farthest Error.
9 See they not what is before them and behind them of the sky and the earth? If We wished We could cause the earth to swallow them up or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance).
P.S. Apparently there was one individual that declare that the earth was not a sphere according to the Quran, but it caused great embarrassment in the Muslim world and he later said that he was mistaken and the he didn't deny that the earth was round.
Directly from Wikipedia
Ibn Baz controversy
One influential modern Muslim jurist has been said to have claimed that the earth is flat, and that anyone who denies this is an unbeliever. Abd-al-Aziz ibn Abd-Allah ibn Baaz (Ibn Baz), the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, was a traditionally educated cleric who suffered from blindness. In 1993, he is said to have issued a fatwa, or religious ruling, declaring, "The Earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment."[85] While the edict reportedly caused embarrassment for many Saudis, Ibn Baz issued a statement maintaining that the earth was spherical but expansive enough to be flat[86] and saying that he "only" denied Earth's rotation.[87][88]
Supporters of Ibn Baz said that the book in which the flat earth claim was supposed to have been laid out does not exist, and that the entire controversy was based on one interview with Egyptian journalists. They said that Ibn Baz, as he clarified later, was referring to the surface of earth that we walk on being flat although he believed the Earth to be spherical. In Arabic, the same word is commonly used for both the earth as well as the ground. The journalist, having not paid attention to this distinction, misquoted Ibn Baz and created a story; the story was picked up by a Kuwaiti magazine (Assiyasah) and from there spread around the world. Ibn Baz was an admirer and a scholar of the works of Ibn Taymiyyah (1263 - 1328), who did not support the flat earth theory.[
