bardock wrote:
>>May I quickly ask you to write down the dates you believe the following occured. I am collating this information from different theists. Generally most theists have never checked these dates before coming to Skeptic websites to complain about evolution.
1) The start of the Sumerian empire
2) The 6 days of creation
3) The "Flood"
4) The Exodus
5) Hebrew became a language separate from Phonecian
6) The first complete Torah was printed<<

This is pointless… What's this about? Do you somehow get off at people not knowing dates?

In essence, many theists come to this forum with detailed arguments against evolution and suggest that if we took the trouble to fully understand the Bible/Quran/Torah we would be enlightened. However many of these same people have no idea about the important mythical dates in the bible or have bothered to determine if there are any contradictions or even make sense. This seems odd considering theists think these myths are so important.

I'll humor you. This is from the point of view of someone who had to study Islam from a very young age but never practiced it…

1) Sometime around late 6th millennium B.C. I looked this up. Nothing in Islam would have you believe otherwise. I fail to see why this is important. The flood myths and Adam & Eve myth come from the Sumerian religions ( you can read about them in Gilgamesh and archeology). The late Sumerian language is Akkadian. Abraham, if he existed, spoke Akkadian and came from the city of Ur. Many Muslims, Christians and Jews think that Abraham and these myths belong to their religion and not another. My aim is to establish this for future discussion. If you dispute it now I will have a better understanding of your belief system. ( Most fundamentalist Christian refuse to accept Abraham's origins)

2) Time is a relative concept. People can do all the calculations they want no matter what they might believe or how much it makes sense to them, in an Islamic point of view they simply cannot give a definite answer. Muslims usually say "Allah ya'alam" basically god knows. Not really, a day is when the earth, a sphere, turns a full circle. This takes 24 hours. In 3.5billion BP the earth took 20hours to rotate. Do you believe that God created the world in 6 rotations of the earth or not? This is important because some fundamentalist try to find scientific explanations for 6days not being 6days and I'm trying to determine you position before future discussion.

3) 4,000 - 3,000 B.C. it affected parts of Mesopotamia not the entire world. Mentioned in the Quran as being strictly an infliction on Noah's people. Backed by geological evidence. I absolutely agree, there was no world wide flood. I actually really believe there were many very big floods and small hillocks became literal "arks" with cows, sheep and small village families surviving ver periods of time. We still get exactly the same "hill arks" in Australia today during floods. I will assume that you do not think that all animals, plants, bacteria and other humans were killed by god in the flood and it is just a local story.


4) Sometime around 1200-1000 B.C. there is no evidence to back this up. There was no exodus so there is no date. The myth vcomes from the expulsion of the Hyksos semetic rulers of Egypt in 1561BP and the explosion of Thera, the volcano 150 years later. I now assume you do not believe in the Exodus.

Last two I have absolutely no knowledge of. Nor do I care.
Hebrew became a separate language only in 1200BP and the first complete torah was only in 200BP. This is important because the late date of the language and first publishing allows the abrahamic religion to introduce the myths of other religions up to a very late date. I though this would be important to someone who belived in the Quran because it has element of zoroastroism in it> Zoroastorism is the first monotheist religion. The Abrahamic religions had many gods and stil does ( Christianity is the worst as it has
1) god, 2) The Holy Spirit 3) Jesus 4) The Devil 5) Angel Gabriel 6) 11 main angels and so on and so on. How many supernatural being are there in the Quran?

Why hadn't anyone written about the splitting of the Red Sea?
I did. This is part of the Exodus story.

Quran states that all the warriors drowned and (this is not mentioned in the Quran) the other 1.2 million lived by the Nile. See any fault in that theory? The quote is actually 600,000 Jewish warriors and their families crossed the reed sea. Assuming each warrior had one wife and one family member that is 1.8million people leaving Egypt. In archeology we know that the entire population of Egypt, including slaves, was 1.2million. Therefore not only did more Jews leave Egypt that the entire population, but there was no drop in wheat production and not one Egyptian scibe or historian mentioned anything unusual. ( The Exodus did not happen). This is important because the "chosen people" in Judea after the exodus are probably not the same "chosen people" from Noah's myth. This destoys much of the logic of the bible.

There are a few interesting things relating to Egypt and Moses in the Quran.

1) The Quran mentions a Haman as being someone important to the Pharaoh at the time of Moses. People discredited the Quran because of that. Apparently it was widely accepted that Haman was a member of the Persian Empire and not the Egyptian Empire. After the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, a scripture was translated. Guess who was mentioned in that scripture. From it they deduced that he was an important figure to the Pharaoh. I am aware of this but the Hyksos were semetic rulers of Egypt for 200 years and obviously they had some top scribes called Moses. They were chucked out in 1645BP about 200 years before the biblical date of the Exodus.

2) The Bible and Torah both state that the Pharaoh drowned and the Quran does the same BUT the difference is the Quran states that the body will be preserved as a lesson. Archeologists found a mummy BELIEVED to be of the aforementioned Pharaoh.
The Pharoah's had been mummifying their bodies for 1000 years before "the exodus" and built huge monuments to advertise this fact. It would seem the author of the Quran noticed this and included the story.

3) This has more to do with Egypt than it does Moses. Rulers of Ancient Egypt have not always been called Pharaohs. That developed later on in their history sometime around the 14 century B.C. I think. The Quran calls the rulers of Ancient Egypt before that transition rulers or kings and those after as Pharaohs. The Bible and the Torah don't make that distinction. Is this significant? You decide…
The old kingdom names are different. You are refering to the name change after the Hyksos expulsion.
http://history-world.org/hyksos.htm