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Matthew Ellard.pedg		#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 154 06/12/08 22:15:28	Initial Required Evidence of "God" in anthropology or chemistry to defeat skeptics 1) Retention or deletion of environmental-neutral DNA morphologies beyond standard deviation of normal half life mutation rates. ( In English, whales retain legs at birth and humans retain appendixes because these characteristics are environmentally neutral to survival whereas an external influence may have more rapidly added or deleted neutral morphologies as part of external influence) (NO EVIDENCE THIS HAPPENS) 2) High percentages of "new" non active DNA information in a species. ( In English, 90% of DNA is inactive leftovers from the origin species. If there were a very high percentage of new inactive DNA then it would be beyond the standard deviation for normal mutation and suggest an external influence introducing DNA. (NO EVIDENCE THIS HAPPENS) 3) Evidence of biased sexual behaviour to promote god effected DNA gene pools in conflict to natural selection ( In English, Natural selection is a constant influence. Any external force needs to act upon its effected species to overwhelm the force of natural selection. A non-natural breeding bias would suggest "eugenics" and thus an external force. (NO EVIDENCE THIS HAPPENS) 4) Non-random quantum behaviour in small particle physics. (In English, a god must be able to effect the physical world on an atomic level. Evidence of another force on a particle that can "command" the particle to do something complex other than "gravitate this way", "electromagnetic force that way" etc (NO EVIDENCE THIS HAPPENS) 5) Any evidence of any influence on current population (In English, any evidence that a major religious group has higher quality lifestyles, breeding populations, better health or homogeneous behaviour over long periods under guardianship of God ) (NO EVIDENCE THIS HAPPENS) 6) Evidence of communication of God to subjects other than "God told me, a human" ( In English: Evidence in the form of building, structures, letters, tablets, advanced technologies, non-terrestrial materials, artificial landscapes, or any other phenomena not naturally occurring or by the hand of man that indicates how god announced himself to his subjects to allow writing of bible. (NO EVIDENCE FOUND) 7) Evidence of Anthropological behaviour not consistent with existing social terrestrial behaviour ( In English: Was the fictional character Jesus assembling a alien device or establishing a new community with a new social structure, or using new science or technology? No, he was complaining about tax on monetary exchanges in the temple (NO EVIDENCE FOUND) Evidence of predicting the future in behavior . (In English: God is influencing life on earth and therefore has fore knowledge of the result. If evidence existed of foreknowledge of social or technological advances in religious texts this would suggest external influence with a plan. ie populations moving to to equator before ice age). (NO EVIDENCE FOUND) 9) Any evidence of mass killings / burial other than the hand of man (Evidence that god "smoted" a mass population where we can observe the bodies and conclude they did not die from starvation, disease or natural causes. Where are the 30,000 Egyptian, 1st born, buried, including Pharoh (who was also a first born child but didnt get sick for some magic reason) (NO EVIDENCE FOUND) I now welcome further scientific tests for evidence that prove there is a god. But I know the answer will be...... 1) God is too intelligent for us humans to understand 2) God is works beyond the current knowledge of physics 3) The Bible is the only evidence that we need 4) Gosh, look at the world around us...god must of made it...because it's so complex 5) If God didn't create the universe why is it just right for humans? ( My favourite because it ignores the basic concepts of evolution) 6) I don't believe in god but I believe in a omnipotent creature that performs intelligent design which is a scientific theory like evolution, 7) God tells me he exists through prayer I am not going to lower myself to the level of a skeptics by using primitive greek logic when I can use the poetry of god's words
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GreasusChrysler	First Point	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 229 06/13/08 20:22:00	Initial Required Evidence of "God" in anthropology or chemistry to defeat skeptics Matthew - 1) Retention or deletion of environmental-neutral DNA morphologies beyond standard deviation of normal half life mutation rates. ( In English, whales retain legs at birth and humans retain appendixes because these characteristics are environmentally neutral to survival whereas an external influence may have more rapidly added or deleted neutral morphologies as part of external influence) (NO EVIDENCE THIS HAPPENS) Greasus - I appreciate the translation. Very much. Lets pretend, for the sake of argument, that I am the President of The United States. Dumb as a post. And even more ridiculous, you are an American scientist in charge of the department of whale legs research. You need money and there is an angry mob of whale leg advocates and Xian scientist haters on the gates of the White House. Suffice it to say, you could cut the tension with a pectoral fin ... and ... You are saying, in essence, that we see evolution so there can't be a god? Or are you saying we can't see a god so we would like to assume that he isn't there? Or are you saying that whales are born with legs so there couldn't possibly be a god, he vanished this morning in a poof of logic because we found these, uh, well these ... whale legs, actually. And a bowl of petunias as well. It doesn't make sense. What evidence is there, other than that science can state it as an observable fact, that whales have legs at birth and why would this demonstrate the non existence of a god like creature? Or ... is it that there is the existence of a non god like creature?! Plus. Can you, please, difine the Hebrew word god and the English word creature? SAB Preface / What The Bible Says About ... Abortion / Amputation / Astrology / Believers / Birth Control / Blasphemy / Blind People / Pedophilia / *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!* Last Edited By: GreasusChrysler 06/13/08 21:27:00. Edited 3 times.
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jeff		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2361 06/14/08 00:10:35	What evidence is there, other than that science can state it as an observable fact, that whales have legs at birth and why would this demonstrate the non existence of a god like creature? you could touch the extra legs, i suppose, and listen as they are banged together, lick them, if you're brave, or give them a good smelling. other than that, greasus, you're quite right - other than observing them, there is no way to establish that whale legs are an observable fact. Or are you saying that whales are born with legs so there couldn't possibly be a god, it says that whales were not created, they evolved. or is there some biblical basis for whale legs?
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GreasusChrysler	Whale Legs And Sunspots	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 230 06/14/08 06:19:00	Jeff - it says that whales were not created, they evolved. or is there some biblical basis for whale legs? Greasus - Now we are getting somewhere. You see, I asked about the observance of legs because I have never seen legs on a whale, and often evolutionist will look at the bones of a fish and there will be a little nub of bone in a particular place and the evolutionist will say something like; "50 million years ago that was a leg." and to them from there on it is for all of their practical purpose, a leg. Of course, there is no Biblical basis for whale legs, but even if whales had legs that most certainly doesn't mean that they were not created but they evolved it only means that is what you would like to think. The reason for this is that you believe in evolution and are excited by the conclusion that you can draw from the legs regarding evolution. That is all that it means. Lets go back in time from the whale leg meeting with the dumb American president all the way back to Rome 1633 before the equally stupid Pope - You the reader are the Pope, and I am Galileo Galilei. At the time, of course, the Church was in control. I was hip to Copernicus' work, entitled On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres from 90 years earlier, but the Church was far more tolerant of the heliocentric back then, plus, my (Galileo's) quick wit and biting sarcasm isn't winning over any friends. I am making the biggest mistake in presenting myself as an authority on religion when I suggest that the heliocentric concept is in harmony with scripture. What I should have done is ask you, The Pope, where in the scripture, there is any indication of a disagreement with the heliocentric concept. Because there isn't. Then, like now, it wouldn't or doesn't make much difference, but at least it would have eased the transition of an event that to this day is still remembered. Show me a picture of a whale leg. SAB Preface / What The Bible Says About ... Abortion / Amputation / Astrology / Believers / Birth Control / Blasphemy / Blind People / Pedophilia / *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!* Last Edited By: GreasusChrysler 06/14/08 06:24:51. Edited 2 times.
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Malkut		#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6892 06/14/08 09:17:56	GreasusChrysler wrote: Show me a picture of a whale leg. Kay. Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity. -Chapterhouse: Dune ***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.
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GreasusChrysler	So Long And Thanks For All The Fish	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 233 06/14/08 12:11:37	Malkut wrote: GreasusChrysler wrote: Show me a picture of a whale leg. Kay. That is what I expected. Evolutionist finds a bone on a fish in 1919 and calls it a leg. One is found on the coast of Japan in 2006. I was rather under the opinion that all whales had legs. Has the possibility occurred that they haven't evolved but are evolving? Expect them to be on dry land within the next 250 million years! To take over the world. I can see the headlines now. Dolphins walked out of Seaworld today for last time to pursue other avenues ... literally. SAB Preface / What The Bible Says About ... Abortion / Amputation / Astrology / Believers / Birth Control / Blasphemy / Blind People / Pedophilia / *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!*
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Malkut		#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6896 06/14/08 12:54:30	GreasusChrysler wrote: That is what I expected. Evolutionist finds a bone on a fish in 1919 and calls it a leg. It's not a bone, it's several, including a very obvious knee joint. GreasusChrysler wrote: Has the possibility occurred that they haven't evolved but are evolving? Were there anything to support such a claim, I would. Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity. -Chapterhouse: Dune ***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.
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GreasusChrysler	Spider Pig	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 236 06/14/08 15:07:48	Malkut - It's not a bone, it's several, including a very obvious knee joint. Greasus - Good point. It is in fact a leg. Malkut - Were there anything to support such a claim, I would. Greasus - Why, though, are you so rigid in what you believe this leg to mean? That's what intrigues me. They found some legs on some whales and dolphins, but what are any other possibilities? Other possible reasons for there being legs on whales? Psssttt! Hey, Malky ... I once seen a pig and a cow with extra legs ... do you think they might have been spiders once?! Maybe you should lay down $100,000 for an education so you could make your money back trying to 'prove' that?! Huh?! Heck yeah ... SAB Preface / What The Bible Says About ... Abortion / Amputation / Astrology / Believers / Birth Control / Blasphemy / Blind People / Pedophilia / *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!*
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Malkut		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6898 06/14/08 15:32:19	GreasusChrysler wrote: Why, though, are you so rigid in what you believe this leg to mean? First of all, having legs wouldn't give whales the ability to survive on land for any significant period of time. Ever heard of people trying to rescue a beached whale? Beached whales die from dehydration after a few hours, or just suffocate under their own bulk without water to support it. Legs notwithstanding, the rest of them isn't adapted for life on land, whereas their smaller, more hippo-like ancestors might well have been. Simplest explanation: atavism. Besides, we're up here, and if ever there was a species that was hostile to the survival of whales, it's us. In no way is natural selection favoring a mutation that would give whales the ability to walk on land. Secondly, you made an assertion without providing any evidence. Until you give me a reason to believe something, why should I believe it? GreasusChrysler wrote: Psssttt! Hey, Malky ... I once seen a pig and a cow with extra legs ... do you think they might have been spiders once?! Cows and pigs started with legs. Nobody is disputing that cows have legs. Unless you've ever seen a cow slither, they aren't an atavism. If you do seen a cow slither, call me immediately, because that sounds awesome. Extra stuff or missing stuff seems to be the most common type of mutation. Like a copy error when burning a CD. It's all just data, really. Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity. -Chapterhouse: Dune ***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.
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Argy Lacedom		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2245 06/14/08 14:34:49	GreasusChrysler wrote: Has the possibility occurred that they haven't evolved but are evolving? Of course it has. Every species is evolving continually. In a million years humans will not look like we do today. "If something as simple as matter requires a creator, why doesn't something as complex as God? If something as complex as God doesn't require a creator, why does something as simple as matter?" Hawker Hurricane SAB
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GreasusChrysler	What Is This, Then?	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 237 06/14/08 15:11:39	Argy - Of course it has. Every species is evolving continually. In a million years humans will not look like we do today. Faith, Argy. Faith. SAB Preface / What The Bible Says About ... Abortion / Amputation / Astrology / Believers / Birth Control / Blasphemy / Blind People / Pedophilia / *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!*
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jeff	show me the monkey	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2362 06/14/08 11:00:10	but even if whales had legs that most certainly doesn't mean that they were not created but they evolved it only means that is what you would like to think. but there's no evidence whatsoever that they were created, so isn't that just what you'd like to think? or do you have evidence for creation? i've asked for such evidence in the past, but all i get is a lot of palaver about evolution, from people who can't even define the term.
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GreasusChrysler	Evidence	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 231 06/14/08 11:52:14	Jeff - but there's no evidence whatsoever that they were created, so isn't that just what you'd like to think? or do you have evidence for creation? i've asked for such evidence in the past, but all i get is a lot of palaver about evolution, from people who can't even define the term. Greasus - Well, lets just assume, for now, that I could consider the leg being evidence of creation just as well as you could for evolution. For example, it is mentioned that the whale has a leg at birth. Where does it go? Does the whale keep the leg or does it become something else? Is it really a leg or is it assumed that it was once a leg? Is it something that might aid in the birth or pre-birth of the whale instead of being some leftover from a presumed eon ago? I could just as easily assume it was an indication of creation as you could evolution. The evidence is in the eye of the beholder because neither one of us can say for sure. Bible Babble - Disclaimer *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!*
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Malkut		#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6895 06/14/08 12:52:03	GreasusChrysler wrote: Well, lets just assume, for now, that I could consider the leg being evidence of creation just as well as you could for evolution. Well, that's sort of the problem. You could. Anything could be considered evidence for creation. There's little, perhaps nothing, that truly disagrees with the concept, just the method through which it's achieved. It's entirely nonfalsifiable. Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity. -Chapterhouse: Dune ***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.
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GreasusChrysler	Nonfalsifiable?	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 239 06/14/08 16:26:09	Malkut - Well, that's sort of the problem. You could. Anything could be considered evidence for creation. There's little, perhaps nothing, that truly disagrees with the concept, just the method through which it's achieved. It's entirely nonfalsifiable Greasus - Wouldn't the same apply to evolution? The problem that I see is that Evolution teaches that kinds evolve into other kinds and the Bible disagrees, it states that kinds were created and all (more or less) appeared at once. It doesn't give times in which they appeared but I have seen evidence that they did seem to appear suddenly, rather than evolved over time. It doesn't really matter to me in that evidence can be taken for many years to mean one thing and then suddenly change. It is all nonfalsifiable. SAB Preface / What The Bible Says About ... Abortion / Amputation / Astrology / Believers / Birth Control / Blasphemy / Blind People / Pedophilia / *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!*
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Malkut		#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 6899 06/15/08 01:50:16	GreasusChrysler wrote: Wouldn't the same apply to evolution? There are a lot of ways that it could have gone. If the fossil record didn't show distinct patterns that speak of a long and turbulent history of life, if DNA evidence didn't seem to link humans to other animals, and other animals to each other, if every life form was designed with the precision of a high-performance sports car, without variation, unchanging from one generation to the next . . . then yes, evolution would be false. Evolution is falsifiable. It's just that everything the field of biology has discovered since Darwin, and a great deal of what came before, is exactly what it should be, if the theory is true. GreasusChrysler wrote: It doesn't really matter to me in that evidence can be taken for many years to mean one thing and then suddenly change. You call it change, but it's not. Everything that was true the morning after a big discovery was true the morning before it. Nothing has actually changed, save our point of view. That's not change, it's refinement. It's nothing to be afraid of. It's the pathway to a deeper understanding. Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity. -Chapterhouse: Dune ***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.
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jeff	observation	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2363 06/14/08 13:22:19	For example, it is mentioned that the whale has a leg at birth. Where does it go? it doesn't 'go' anywhere. like your appendix, it is there for life. we can OBSERVE adult whales with the same bones as children Does the whale keep the leg or does it become something else? we OBSERVE that it keeps it and it goes nowhere. Is it really a leg or is it assumed that it was once a leg? since it has all the characteristics we OBSERVE on other legs, it too is a leg Is it something that might aid in the birth or pre-birth of the whale instead of being some leftover from a presumed eon ago? well, finally something that we can perhaps observe. DO YOU HAVE ANY OBSERVATIONS THAT WHALES USE THE LEG IN THE WAY YOU SUGGEST? The evidence is in the eye of the beholder because neither one of us can say for sure. what evidence would you require that whale legs have evolved rather than were created?
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GreasusChrysler	A Game Of Football At Seaworld?	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 238 06/14/08 15:30:29	Jeff - it doesn't 'go' anywhere. like your appendix, it is there for life. we can OBSERVE adult whales with the same bones as children Greasus - Is that right?! The same bones as children. Bones are bones, aren't they? Were the bones in the belly of the whale? A sort of Jonah's Sheol bone? Now I heard tell of that with catfish in the river yonder, but I don't believe it. Jeff - we OBSERVE that it keeps it and it goes nowhere. Greasus - It doesn't evolve. It hasn't evolved? Jeff - since it has all the characteristics we OBSERVE on other legs, it too is a leg Greasus - What, you mean spandex? Jeff - well, finally something that we can perhaps observe. DO YOU HAVE ANY OBSERVATIONS THAT WHALES USE THE LEG IN THE WAY YOU SUGGEST? Greasus - Well, in fact, I am in contact with Seaworld to set up a game of Football, but they uh ... they ... say, you sure have come out of your shell when it comes to the upper case type, there buddy. YOU GETTIN' ALL WORKED UP?! Jeff - what evidence would you require that whale legs have evolved rather than were created? Greasus - We better just walk it off. There's just no talking to you. SAB Preface / What The Bible Says About ... Abortion / Amputation / Astrology / Believers / Birth Control / Blasphemy / Blind People / Pedophilia / *LISTEN! Ssshhhh!*
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jeff		#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2364 06/14/08 16:27:36	YOU GETTIN' ALL WORKED UP?! hell no. your little puppet show is amusing in its buffoonery, but it is incapable of evoking an emotional response beyond that. i capped that sentence so that you might better read it, perhaps respond to it with something other than derision, and (hope beyond hope) advance this argument of yours. it is, after all, the only statement of any import you've made so far. so i take it that you have no evidence that these legs are actually there to facilitate birth. any other ideas you'd like to throw out, or is it time for another beer and some more hand waving?
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