| Author | Comment | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
 iainab |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #1 | ||
|
Posts: 2420 08/06/05 10:28:33 |
fair enough. i think we're in total agreement on this...
--------------------
If all this wisdom is true, Then I doubt it could really have come from you -- Idlewild |
|||
|
|
||||
|
David from Texas |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #2 | ||
|
Posts: 2001 08/15/05 16:51:32 |
Dear Waterrock,
Thank you for the discussion above. It is deeply appreciated. I am a former Catholic, and appreciate the way in which you present the truth. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
stevusmagnus |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #3 | ||
|
Posts: 1 12/24/05 21:30:58 |
From (www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/MARY523.HTM#06)
Until: Most ancient words have a broad span of possible meanings. Sometimes the word for until leaves room for a change after the time point indicated. However not nearly always. In Dt. 34:6 Moses was buried, "and to this day no one knows where the grave is." That was true in the day of the writer of Dtit is still true even today. In Psalm 110:1, as interpreted by Jesus Himself (Mt. 22-42-46),"The Lord said to my [David's] Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool. '" Of course, Jesus was not to stop being at the right hand of the Father at any point. So the word until here does not mean a change of status. Psalm 72:7, a messianic Psalm, says that in his days "peace will abound until the moon is no more." Again, the power of the Messiah is not to stop when the moon no longer gives its light (Mt. 24:29). In 2 Samuel 6:23 that David's wife Michal had no son "until the day of her death." Of course, she did not have one after that! In Mt. 11:23 Our Lord says that if the miracles done in Capernaum had been done in Sodom, "it would have lasted until the present day." Had it lasted, Jesus did not intend to destroy it in His time. In Mt 28:20 Jesus promised to be with His Church, His followers until the end of the worldnor would He desert them in eternity. In Romans 8:22 St. Paul says that all creation groans, waiting for there revelation of the sons of God until Paul's day. Nor did it stop then, that will continue until the restoration at the end. In 1 Timothy 4:13 the Apostle tells Timothy to devote himself to reading, exhortation and teaching "until I come." He did not mean Timothy should stop such things when Paul did come.and there are more, but these should be more than enough to show that not always does until in OT and NT, mean a change of things is to come at the point referred to. Even J. P. Meier, who works so strenuously to try to show that most probably Jesus had real siblings, admits that the arguments from "until" proves nothing (In CBQ Jan. 1992, pp. 9-11). |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Argy Lacedom |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #4 | ||
|
Posts: 2281 12/25/05 16:21:03 |
Quote:I grow very tired of this apologist ruse. They forget that the bible has been translated into English. If a word has a meaning that cannot be represented by a single English word then the device of using MORE THAN ONE word is perfectly reasonable and, indeed, demanded. Also, if the ancient word had a variety of meanings it was the duty of the original writer to remove ambiguity by selecting a diffferent word, or putting it in a context where its meaning was unambiguous. ________________________________________________________________________
If there is evil in the world in lies in the lack of doubt. I am suspicious of the idea of the righteous. - Tilda Swinton |
|||
|
|
||||
|
One Brow |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #5 | ||
|
Posts: 2079 12/25/05 23:10:35 |
Quote: They did a translation like that, the Amplified Bible. It's unreadable, even by the standards of Bible translations. Quote: Just because it is unclear to us 2,000 years later does not mean it was unclear to a native speaker. Think of how many definitions the dictionary has for words like religion, and imagine a speaker of whatener trying to figure out which definition is meant at what time when he doesn't know our idioms. -----------------------------
"Come now, and let us reason together" |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Argy Lacedom |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #6 | ||
|
Posts: 2281 12/26/05 00:55:43 |
Quote:Yes, I've seen it. Quote:That's simply where the job of the translator comes in. It is his responsibility to ensure that the translation matches the original meaning. However, I do agree with you that the practical difficulty of doing this makes it a nonsense to claim the infallibility of the bible. ________________________________________________________________________
If there is evil in the world in lies in the lack of doubt. I am suspicious of the idea of the righteous. - Tilda Swinton |
|||
|
|
||||
|
Diskeyezed |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #7 | ||
|
Posts: 851 12/26/05 16:52:55 |
Quote: I disagree with the notion that it's "unreadable." If one understands what the Amplified Bible is, it is not difficult to follow. Sometimes, though, they not only add other possible translations, but commentators' views, which can push it over the line. But, yeah, if the average person just sits down to read it without understanding what the translation is about, he/she may be confused by the way it's worded. "As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Clara Listensprechen |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #8 | ||
|
Posts: 94 05/23/06 08:36:19 |
I'm astonished that no one brought up the matter of other places in the NT where brothers and sisters of Jesus actually showed up and Jesus had to explain who exactly were his brothers and sisters. The crowd he was talking to identified his blood siblings as such, so therefore it's fair to conclude that Joseph did "know" Mary subsequent to Jesus' birth. If they hadn't had intercourse, there would be no present-day bruhaha over a bonebox inscribed for "James, the brother of Jesus", now, would there.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
KillerSkeptic |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #9 | ||
|
Posts: 7 11/27/07 09:41:03 |
U 4get, Argy, that Matthew, whose Gospel addressed an ancient, Greek-speaking audience (not 2 mention the fact that the Gospel itself, as we have it 2day, was written in Koine Greek), would most probably have understood the different senses and contexts in which the word ''until'' ([i]heos[/i])
and the statement containing it were written. The peace of Christ be with you all. 
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Argy Lacedom |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #10 | ||
|
Posts: 2281 11/27/07 09:51:41 |
I couldn't give a rat's arse what the original readers would have taken as the meaning. If the meaning has been lost the intervening translators haven't done their job.
BTW: Welcome! ________________________________________________________________________
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh - Robert A. Heinlein When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land - Desmond Tutu |
|||
|
|
||||
|
KillerSkeptic |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #11 | ||
|
Posts: 7 11/27/07 10:06:36 |
Original authors are one thing, intervening translators another.
It's mighty imprudent 2 me 2 blame Matthew 4 others' scribal errors. Thank you 4 ur kind greeting. Dominus vobiscum
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Argy Lacedom |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #12 | ||
|
Posts: 2281 11/27/07 15:03:02 |
Quote:Do you read Koine Greek? Quote:And the Force with you. ________________________________________________________________________
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh - Robert A. Heinlein When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land - Desmond Tutu |
|||
|
|
||||
|
KillerSkeptic |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #13 | ||
|
Posts: 7 11/27/07 15:44:17 |
I'll not lie, 2 u, Argy, i own no Koine lexicons, i do not read the entire dialect. However, when it is considered that it is an objective fact that both the New Testament (hereafter the NT) and the Septuagint version of the Old Testament were written in Koine, this becomes irrelevant. Do i have 2 be able 2 read the dialect in order 2 know that the NT was written in it?
Brush up on ur debating skills you must, Argy.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Argy Lacedom |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #14 | ||
|
Posts: 2281 11/27/07 18:30:56 |
Quote:If you do not understand the language you are relying on third parties to tell you what it means. You are just as vulnerable to their misinterpretations and misconceptions as the people who translated the text wrongly in the first place. ________________________________________________________________________
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh - Robert A. Heinlein When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land - Desmond Tutu |
|||
|
|
||||
|
KillerSkeptic |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #15 | ||
|
Posts: 7 11/28/07 07:17:07 |
Well, Argy, misconceptions are quite another matter; 1 on which both u and i are in total agreement. I do know at least some root Koine words, such as the 1 cited above. The mere fact that i don't own any lexicons of Koine says nothing about the knowledge i DO have. And besides, my main point was not 2 prove the NT's truth, only 2 suggest that the NT writer would have understood something about the connotations of the word [i]heos[/i] that the average Bible reader probably would not 2day.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Argy Lacedom |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #16 | ||
|
Posts: 2281 11/28/07 08:07:39 |
Quote:You have proved nothing. Sure, they could have known what they were talking about, but if so they didn't express themselves unambiguously. And therefore, if the bible is supposed to be the word of god, God failed. ________________________________________________________________________
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh - Robert A. Heinlein When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land - Desmond Tutu |
|||
|
|
||||
|
KillerSkeptic |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #17 | ||
|
Posts: 7 11/28/07 09:09:03 |
Argy, let me tell u something about myself. I'm an agnostic, and probably will remain so until (modern sense) i die. At least 4 the most part, U and i will probably agree on a gr8 many things concerning faith (the above greetings r intended 2 be humorous). But, having been raised Catholic, and also having researched religion, theology, philosophy and history 4 almost a decade, i have heard the arguments of many Catholic/Orthodox apologists, and couldn't help but think that when looked at from the historical/theological/linguistic perspective, the arguments 4 Mary's perpetual virginity made sense (i refer here 2 the early church's belief in it rather than my own). Consider this: were u 2 write a book 2day, it would be intended 4 an English-speaking audience. However difficult translation efforts r, this would be much easier than it was 2,000 yrs. ago, yet at the same time very difficult 4 the translator 2day. However, in the 1st century, these concerns scarcely existed, as over half of the Mediterranean world spoke Koine. The community addressed in Matthew's Gospel and others who would circulate and read it could never have known that other cultural/ethnic groups would be reading it, much less that it would be considered inspired scripture a mere century afterward, and canonized as such only 2 centuries after even this (the 2nd century). If over half the world spoke English when ur book was published, would u worry very much about translation/exegetical issues?
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Keith and Company |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #18 | ||
|
Posts: 3733 11/28/07 09:39:27 |
Quote:A lot of the apparent errors, contradictions, mistranslations, scientific failings, and anachronisms are easily explained if we figure that authorship The Books is limited to human beings with no better than human understanding, planning, enlightenment and travel. But for the most part, The Books isn't offered as 'something written a long time ago, with some interesting/cool/worthy things inside it.' IF it is the work of the Divine, then one can't just accept 'the author didn't know any better' as an apology for the Books' failings. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
KillerSkeptic |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #19 | ||
|
Posts: 7 11/28/07 10:21:29 |
We could if we understood that divine inspiration was limited only 2 what God wanted us 2 know about Himself, that the writers each had different writing styles/purposes, and that they were not always trying 2 write exact history; we must also factor in time, age and memory, and also truncation of events.
|
|||
|
|
||||
|
Keith and Company |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #20 | ||
|
Posts: 3733 11/28/07 11:45:59 |
In that case, after factoring enough apologist factors for why the Books can have a divine inspiration, yet doesn't make sense today, we're left with a The Books that was aimed at, and only of use for, the population of the time it was published, and meaningless to us.
Either it was written with only local and contemporary knowledge, because that's all the author knew, or it was limited to local and contemporary knowledge because that's all the author wanted to convey. Neither one produces a book that's of any sort of special value to modern man. |
|||
|
|
||||
|
KillerSkeptic |
Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | #21 | ||
|
Posts: 7 11/28/07 12:03:20 |
See, there u go. That's where we could potentially agree; never thought of that b4.
|
|||
|
|
||||
| Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 08/04/05 23:52:23 | Waterrock |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 08/05/05 07:24:27 | iainab |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 08/05/05 08:22:28 | Waterrock |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 08/06/05 10:28:33 | iainab |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 08/15/05 16:51:32 | David from Texas |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 12/24/05 21:30:58 | stevusmagnus |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 12/25/05 16:21:03 | Argy Lacedom |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 12/25/05 23:10:35 | One Brow |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 12/26/05 00:55:43 | Argy Lacedom |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 and the Virginity of Mary | 12/26/05 16:52:55 | Diskeyezed |
| Re: Mt. 1:25 a |
