Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey
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Franciscan Monkey |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #1 | ||
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The phrase, "that it might be fulfilled," indicates that it was indeed to be considered a fulfillment of predictive prophecy. If Matthew was illustrating a typological pattern, he would have used language similar to what is found in Matthew 12:40.
Respectfully, Franciscan Monkey |
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Rev Etherman |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #2 | ||
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A few weeks ago I would have argued with Waterrock over this, but I've been doing some research and I think he's right. I think he's more right than he knows. In fact, I think he's more right than he wants to be. The Jews had a type of literature known as Midrash. In it, allusions to past events were interwoven into the story to give it more meaning (pretty much the way allusions are still used in Western literature). As Bishop Spong has argued the Gospels were all written in the Midrash tradition. Events in Jesus' life were taken from OT events. Jesus healing people, feeding the masses, and raising the dead were all based on the stories of Elijah and Elisha. The Crucifixion was an allusion to the Passover sacrifice. First century Jews would have recognized this and so they wouldn't think that the Gospel stories were supposed to be history and fact. The Gospels were never intended to be historical; they were intended to be typological, to use Waterrock's terminology. Jesus wouldn't even need to be a real person. The important thing in the Gospels is the teachings. Jesus was just a convenient fiction about which the allusions were to be wrapped around.
It should also be pointed out that the word "prophecy" has picked up a connotation that it didn't have 2000 years ago. Anyone who spoke for God was a prophet. A prophecy was any pronouncement made by a prophet acting in his role as a prophet. It's only later that it came to mean a prediction of the future (though it can certainly include that). So when Matthew says that Jesus fulfilled such and such a prophecy there's no implication that the prophesy was supposed to be a prediction. In the case of Hosea 11:1 it obviously wasn't a prediction. Matthew was just borrowing the Out of Egypt motiff for Midrashic purposes. If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be born that way.
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Franciscan Monkey |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #3 | ||
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Bishop Spong's work has been widely criticized from both liberal and conservative Bible scholars as reading too much into the gospels, and also for expanding the definition of what constitutes a midrash.
It is quite evident to me that the gospels are presenting Jesus as an actual historical figure. Matthew and Luke contain extensive genealogies. Luke claimed that his purpose was to write an accurate account of Jesus in Luke 1:1-4, and in Acts 1:1-3 he stated that there were "proofs" that Jesus was alive. All of the gospels placed historical, if sometimes contradictory, markers throughout the narratives. John 20:30 claimed that Jesus performed many other miracles that were witnessed by the disciples but not written down, a statement that doesn't make any sense if taken allegorically. The midrashes I have read (admittedly limited) take a different literary form than the gospels. They seem much more expository in nature rather than narrative. This is not to say that the gospel writers were making up totally fresh stories. It is clear that they connected OT passages with Jesus, in both typological and predictive senses. Examples of typological patterns would be Matthew 12:38-41 and Luke 17:20-37. On the other hand, Matthew also claims fulfillment of predictive prophecies, even if the OT authors didn't intend them to be predictive prophecies, as evidenced by his use of "to fulfill" or similar phrases. Respectfully, Franciscan Monkey |
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Rev Etherman |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #4 | ||
Quote: And here a problem arises. If the Gospel writers were writing to Jewish audiences then why would they choose passages that Jews would realize weren't predictive prophecies? If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be born that way.
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Franciscan Monkey |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #5 | ||
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The target audience of the gospel writers was not the educated Jewish religious leaders, but the common man. Most of these people would not have been well-versed in the OT, and wouldn't have been able to cross-reference the passages easily.
Notice that Matthew, by far the biggest offender of the writers in terms of falsely connecting supposed events in Jesus' life to prophecy, at times omitted where the original passage was found, or even attributed the prophecy to another OT prophet. Perhaps this was due to him being slipshod in his work, or perhaps he was willfully misleading his target audience to cover his tracks. Even today, Christian preachers, teachers, and authors are proclaiming that Jesus fulfilled specific predictive prophecies even though the "flock" should know that that is not the case. Proof that it could have worked 2000 years ago is the fact that it actually is still working today. Respectfully, Franciscan Monkey |
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Rev Etherman |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #6 | ||
The target audience of the gospel writers was not the educated Jewish religious leaders, but the common man. Most of these people would not have been well-versed in the OT, and wouldn't have been able to cross-reference the passages easily.It would have been easy enough to ask a Rabbi. Quote: There's an important difference. Most Christians are Christians because they were brought up that way. It's not likely that they would seriously question their beliefs. By the same token, 2000 years ago most Jews were Jews because they were brought up that way. They'd also have the inclination not to question their beliefs. Thus it would be difficult to convert them to Christianity. And we see this historically. Christianity never made great inroads into Judaism. Christianity has only been successful amonst Gentiles, who, of course, had no attachment to the OT. Still, even if Spong has overstated his case, there are still some pretty clear midrashic elements in the Gospels. Jesus as the Passover sacrifice is a good one. If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be born that way.
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Diskeyezed |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #7 | ||
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I've also read some things claiming that the Gospels may have originally been composed as midrash. There are good points in favor of as well as in opposition to that view (as has been noted in this thread).
My position is this: If the Gospels were originally intended as actual history, then the fact is that the authors took OT passages out of context to fabricate prophetic fulfillments, and Waterrock's arguments don't hold up, since the term used is "fulfilled." On the other hand, if they were midrash, then the authors wouldn't have meant "fulfilled" literally, but being midrash renders them non-history. Either way, the Gospels are rendered false. "As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls
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Rev Etherman |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #8 | ||
Quote: I agree, though I still think there might be some grains of truth in there. If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be born that way.
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Diskeyezed |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #9 | ||
Quote: Comparable to the grains of truth in tabloids? "As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls
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Franciscan Monkey |
Matthew's intended audience | #10 | ||
Quote: Matthew's intended audience appears to have been two groups: Gentile Christians, and Nazarenes, Jewish followers of Christ. The Nazarenes believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and had been expelled from the synagogues by the Pharisees in A.D. 90. They were already Christians. They would have had a vested interest in linking Jesus with Messianic prophecies that proved he was the Messiah. Matthew was not written, at least not primarily, to convince Jews to convert to Christianity. That being said, there are many groups that mainstream Christianity considers cults. These cults get most of their followers from among the Christian ranks, people who, according to you, would have had little inclination to question their beliefs, having been raised that way. Yet they go against there own teachings to embrace these new religions. Quote: I agree that Jesus was presented as a picture of the Passover lamb. However, that does not mean that he wasn't being presented historically. A midrash expounds upon an OT passage, and in a style, at least as far as I've seen, quite dissimilar to the Gospel narratives. Yes, both allude to the OT, but in different ways. Respectfully, Franciscan Monkey |
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Franciscan Monkey |
BTW... | #11 | ||
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You have piqued my interest enough that I will probably buy one of Spong's books on the subject on my next run to Books-a-Million. Maybe then I will have some idea what I'm talking about!
Respectfully, Franciscan Monkey |
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Diskeyezed |
Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | #12 | ||
Quote: True, but on the other hand, early Christians are known to have interpolated things into various texts (inlcuding the Bible). Thus, one could postulate the possibility that the things you mention there were not in the original versions, but were added later by those intending to convince people that the stories were actual history. Of course, this is very speculative, but not totally unwarranted, given the fact that we know that there were interpolations. "As for the truth, it seems like we just pick a theory." -- Emily Saliers of Indigo Girls
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Franciscan Monkey |
I agree 100% that that is a possibility. | #13 | ||
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| Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 08/08/05 23:58:37 | Waterrock |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 10/27/05 05:18:14 | Franciscan Monkey |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/07/06 13:57:07 | Rev Etherman |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/09/06 08:42:51 | Franciscan Monkey |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/09/06 23:13:16 | Rev Etherman |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/10/06 21:33:40 | Franciscan Monkey |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/15/06 12:33:35 | Rev Etherman |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/16/06 07:17:08 | Diskeyezed |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/17/06 20:32:34 | Rev Etherman |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/18/06 15:09:43 | Diskeyezed |
| Matthew's intended audience | 01/18/06 16:06:35 | Franciscan Monkey |
| BTW... | 01/18/06 16:12:52 | Franciscan Monkey |
| Re: Matthew 2:15 and Hosea 11:1 | 01/18/06 15:18:43 | Diskeyezed |
| I agree 100% that that is a possibility. | 01/18/06 16:08:45 | Franciscan Monkey |