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smellslikeheresy

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Posts: 2

05/17/08 07:35:34

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For you protestant faithful, do you suppose Christianity is like something of an abstract concept? Is it some intellectual breakthrough or arbitrary thought and experience that causes you to brand yourselves as ' Christians'? (Please consider the rest of my question before you answer)

What context do you look to beyond your own intuition applied to in an antique collection of texts? Perhaps you also look to your particular group, with little care of its origins in antiquity, or lack thereof. Perhaps you are convinced instead that this particular group with which you are affiliated, has remarkably remanufactured the orthodox faith.

My thought for the day:

People like you are everywhere in our faces at work and on the streets, but collectively you have no voice. As a whole, you are fragmented and know not what to believe about your god.

Your theology is like an unsolvable puzzle, until you find enough like minded schismatics, or those charismatic enough among you persuade the weak with your rhetoric, and then the best you can do is offer another so-called church in which to organize your piece of this chaos that is -Christianity.

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Malkut

#141

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Posts: 6918

07/05/08 11:13:32

Kamo7 wrote:

Creationists harped for years on the "Coso Artifact", which some claimed to be a 50,000 year old spark plug. For years, they went on about it.
Thats funny, I thought creationists believed the world was 6000 years old.

They do. They also believe in clinging mindlessly to every single argument they can find that even remotely looks like it might be turned in their favor.

In one interview, the questioner brought up this contradiction. The creationist said that it wasn't true, and the artifact was really "early post-Flood". When asked why he thought that, and what evidence he had to support it, he basically shrugged and changed the subject. This is why creationists are not scientists.

Kamo7 wrote:
I am not talking about just some small artifacts

Small artifacts and a whole lot of assumptions.

Kamo7 wrote:
I'll have to look into the book of Enoch thing, don't know much about it, other than it is quoted in the book of Jude.

This is just the opinion of someone who looks at it all as myth, but I thought it was pretty interesting, at least as far as Old Testament books are concerned. It skipped right over the "sacrifice this, don't bow to that, here's how you're all like whores" thing that they tend to do, and got right to the sex and violence. Less entertaining than Exodus, but way more entertaining than Habbakkuk.

Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

-Chapterhouse: Dune

***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.

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Argy Lacedom

#142

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Posts: 2263

07/05/08 17:46:39

It is a lie which you choose to believe, therefore you will not listen to reason concerning it.

That's exactly what Satan would want you to believe about the bible. He wants you to believe that it s written by an almighty god. He is the ultimate deceiver. But he's left many clues to show that the bible cannot be about an all loving, all powerful god. He is able to be beaten by iron chariots, he repents and sends lying spirits into the mouths of prophets. He allows people to call Jesus the messiah, but he clearly doesn't fulfill most of the messianic prophesies.

Jesus lied several times and deceived his disciples. He said he would not go down to the feast, but turned around a bit later and went down to it. He told his disciples he'd be in the earth for three days and nights just like Jonah. But he was in there for only two nights and one day - about half the time he promised. He said to the thief on the cross that they'd be together in paradise on that very day - but Jesus didn't go there for many days. He said he would reappear in the lifetime of his audience, but he still hasn't come back after two thousand years.

So it's obvious to those who want to open their eyes - the bible is the work of a deceiver.

"If something as simple as matter requires a creator, why doesn't something as complex as God? If something as complex as God doesn't require a creator, why does something as simple as matter?" Hawker Hurricane SAB

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Malkut

#143

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Posts: 6919

07/05/08 22:51:14

Argy Lacedom wrote:
He is able to be beaten by iron chariots

In folklore, iron has properties that repel supernatural creatures, including demons. The tradition of hanging a horseshoe over the door started as a way to fend off evil spirits. I can't help but wonder if it was the material of the weapons that counted, and not the weapons themselves.

It would be fascinating to learn if the same applies to the upstairs variety.

Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

-Chapterhouse: Dune

***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.

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Rambo123UK

Fairies and Suchlike

#144

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Posts: 535

07/06/08 01:36:43

I read an interesting idea on that one. It said that the stories of Elves and fairies - the word "Pixie" comes from Pict - is because when the iron-age invaders landed in Britain, their iron weapons were superior to the bronze-age ones of the natives. Classical sources talk about bronze swords bending all the time and needing to be straightened between your teeth - not that I fancy the dental work afterward, but anyway... so the story goes that because iron became a symbol of warding off "elves" and "Pixies" because the Picts feared the iron weapons of their enemies.

The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning.
-- Voltaire

BIBLE BABBLE

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Kamo7

#145

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Posts: 80

07/06/08 09:14:53

This is because Creationists are money-grubbing fraudsters who are launching an assault on the Western Enlightenment values that our nation was founded on for their own profit, who will do or say anything to sell more magazines, books, and DVDs.

No doubt some are, just like some evolutionists. It is impossible to separate the money problem from anything that grows large enough to produce the same.

"A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." (Charles Darwin)

It is called science. Examining all the evidence, and addressing all the questions.

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Kamo7

#146

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Posts: 81

07/06/08 09:24:28

And your interpretation says that what this means is that some humans found the daughters of other humans to be fair and took wives of them. That's pretty dumb on the face of it. "Men find the daughters of men to be attractive". Stop the presses!

But you did find this little gem:
Matt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
So, thanks for providing yet another contradiction.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Satan and his fallen angels are not considered sons of God. They have chosen not to be. Those angels which are considered sons of God, would not have sexual relations with fallen humanity.

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The context of the above scriptures is in relation to humanity, and the fact that God's spirit would not always strive with humanity. There is no mention of angels in the above verses. One can assume that the phrase sons of God refers to angels, but that is all it is, an assumption. The context is that the men of those people who had chosen to remain faithful to God, began to look upon the women of those who had chosen to reject God, and to take them for their wives. This resulted in those few who had remained faithful to God, eventually turning away from Him. Thus the spirit of God would not always strive with man, but would destroy the world, before there was no one left to maintain a knowledge of God in it. The following is the definition of the word sons of the verses in question-

01121 Nb ben bane

from 01129; n m; {See TWOT on 254}

AV-son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18, young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

1) son, grandson, child, member of a group

1a) son, male child

1b) grandson

1c) children (pl.--male and female)

1d) youth, young men (pl.)

1e) young (of animals)

1f) sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for unrighteous men] or sons of God [for angels]

1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)

1h) of lifeless things, i.e. sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)

1i) a member of a guild, order, class

No mention of angels. Here are some more scriptures that mention sons of God.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Phil 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

I Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:14 clears up the dilemma. Those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. This is the context of what Genesis 6:2-4 is addressing. God's spirit would not always strive with humanity, because, through association with those who were not led by the spirit, those few who were, would lose that relationship with God.

Genesis chapter five ends with the beginning of the story of Noah's life. Chapter six, which contains the verses we are discussing, is the story of Noah and the flood. The 120 years that God's spirit would strive with man, are the years in which Noah built the ark. At the end of these years, the spirit of God ended it's striving with humanity, and the flood came upon the world, and destroyed the same. This is because Noah alone was still faithful to God.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

This is the context of the story from which you are pulling out a few verses and trying to say that God's angels had sex with humans and produced offspring. What else can you do? You have not read the word of God seeking the truth, but only to prove it to be a lie. Thus all you can see is lies, because that is all you are looking for. You are only looking for contradictions, so you can prove the bible to be a lie, thus you completely miss the context, which refutes your accusations. One can never come to a knowledge of the truth through the word of God, when the only reason they read it, is to prove that it is a lie.

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Jenth101

Still Waiting, Kamo

#147

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Posts: 82

07/06/08 14:48:22

Jenth101 wrote:
1.A. Genesis says they heard his voice and hid from him indicating God could see them, but where does it say Adam and Eve saw God?

1.B. Where does it say that Adam and Eve saw angels?

1.C. How is living longer - albeit according to the story much longer - make Adam "a completely superior being" to us?

Plausibility is not a substitute for evidence, however great may be the emotional wish to believe. - E. Bright Wilson Jr., An Introduction to Scientific Research

Last Edited By: Jenth101 07/21/08 02:38:51. Edited 1 time.

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Malkut

#148

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Posts: 6920

07/06/08 15:20:25

Kamo7 wrote:

This is because Creationists are money-grubbing fraudsters who are launching an assault on the Western Enlightenment values that our nation was founded on for their own profit, who will do or say anything to sell more magazines, books, and DVDs.
No doubt some are, just like some evolutionists.

There are no "evolutionists". There are those who accept science, understanding that evolution does not disagree with the idea of God or Creation in the slightest, and there are religious extremists, who have essentially pronounced Jihad on those who want to search for the truth regardless of what other people already believe (who are also seeking to make a nice profit selling bullshit to schoolchildren). In the middle are the products of an underfunded educational system which does not equip them with the knowledge needed to come to their own conclusions, nor the intellectual curiosity to seek it out..

Kamo7 wrote:
"A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." (Charles Darwin)

The argument ended 100 years ago, and Creationists have brought nothing new to the table since.

Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

-Chapterhouse: Dune

***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.

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Malkut

#149

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Posts: 6921

07/06/08 15:23:29

All of that proves nothing, except that different biblical authors used the same term for different groups of individuals.

Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

-Chapterhouse: Dune

***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.

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Zarathstra

#150

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Posts: 4055

07/11/08 06:06:43

Kamo7 wrote:

In the story of Genesis it is a snake. The animal. A snake. The recasting of the baddie in Revelation was written many years later. The author of Genesis was writing about a talking snake. This is clear because God punished snakes, the animals:

Who do you think spoke through the snake?

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan is the one who deceives. He is the father of lies, and the one who spoke lies through the serpent to Eve.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So what you're saying is that in any one book, there can only be one person who deceives people? There's nothing in either of the quotes you posted that indicates that the snake and Satan couldn't be separate liars.

_________________
OCEAN: A body of water occupying about two thirds of a world made for man- who has no gills."

-Ambrose Bierce

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Malkut

Snake?

#151

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Posts: 6922

07/11/08 10:22:34

Who do you think spoke through the snake?

Snake? SNAKE?! SNAAAAAKE!

GAME OVER
Continue/Quit

Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

-Chapterhouse: Dune

***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.

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Kamo7

Game over

#152

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Posts: 82

07/14/08 18:33:47

No game over, just no time. When time allows, I will reply. It is no game to me. I would prefer that all of you have more than just this pitiful life to look forward to. So does God. I hope all is going well for all. Things can turn so bad so quick, and then this life can become true misery. O only hope to reveal to you that there is something so much better ahead. If you will only care to accept it.

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FastHack

zzzzzZZZZZZ

#153

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Posts: 3368

07/14/08 18:51:12

____________________________________
If God inspired men to write the Bible without error, why did He not inspire men to copy it without error? If God miraculously inspired writers to perfection, not inspiring copyists renders the whole point moot.

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Mr3369

#154

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Posts: 1

07/17/08 16:17:46

Are protestants more or less fractured than all the other groups in history on the planet? They were protesting Catholics of the Roman church so its almost illogical to say in comparison: 'at least the Catholics...'

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Kamo7

re.seeing God

#155

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Posts: 83

07/20/08 18:17:18

1.A. Genesis says they heard his voice and hid from him indicating God could see them, but where does it say Adam and Eve saw God?

God formed Adam, then breathed the breath of life into him. He took Adam and put him to sleep, then took one of his ribs and made Eve, and no doubt introduced them. He also had Adam name all the animals. There is no reason to believe that God was hiding from them when He spoke to them, and did these things with them. Nor when He came to the garden looking for them. They hid themselves from God, indicating that they expected to see Him face to face, so they hid from Him.

1.B. Where does it say that Adam and Eve saw angels?

Why would one assume that they could not see angels. They could see and speak with God Himself, why not God's angels? They could certainly see the angel that guarded the entrance to the garden when they were kicked out of it, if they wanted to.

Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

1.C. How is living longer - abeit according to the story much longer - make Adam "a completely superior being" to us?

Yes, they lived very much longer than we do, because they were physically superior to us, and no doubt mentally also.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; ………………….

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Kamo7

evolution

#156

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Posts: 84

07/20/08 18:20:24

There are no "evolutionists". There are those who accept science, understanding that evolution does not disagree with the idea of God or Creation in the slightest, and there are religious extremists, who have essentially pronounced Jihad on those who want to search for the truth regardless of what other people already believe (who are also seeking to make a nice profit selling bullshit to schoolchildren). In the middle are the products of an underfunded educational system which does not equip them with the knowledge needed to come to their own conclusions, nor the intellectual curiosity to seek it out..

Evolution does disagree with what the bible teaches concerning our origins. Science itself is the worst enemy of evolution. It is continually discovering how unimaginably complex life really is. Thus continually making the statisticall probabilities of evolution, via random chance, more and more preposterous.

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Kamo7

argument

#157

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Posts: 85

07/20/08 18:22:03

Kamo7 wrote:

"A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." (Charles Darwin)

The argument ended 100 years ago, and Creationists have brought nothing new to the table since.

You can stick your head in the sand if you wish, and say there is no argument, but that does not make it so. The number of people arguing is growing, not diminishing. The facts do not support your above statement.

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Kamo7

serpent

#158

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Posts: 86

07/20/08 18:23:42

So what you're saying is that in any one book, there can only be one person who deceives people? There's nothing in either of the quotes you posted that indicates that the snake and Satan couldn't be separate liars.

Satan is the father of lies. All those who are liars are his children. The serpent was used by him to decieve Eve. No doubt, the fact that the serpent could speak to Eve, threw her off guard, and added force to the devil's argument that God was withholding something from Adam and Eve by not letting them eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There are many deceivers, but Satan is the originator, and instigater of all deception according to the bible.

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Malkut

#159

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Posts: 6927

07/20/08 19:02:28

Kamo7 wrote:

I am ignorant.

The same tired, meaningless slogans. This is exactly what I mean.

Before you decide that "science is the worst enemy of evolution", perhaps you ought to learn some? Evolution disagrees with your reading of the Bible, perhaps. That doesn't make the Bible wrong, it makes you wrong, and you're too arrogant to admit it. Which doesn't surprise me, given the novel you've written in this thread alone about how awesome your way of looking at the Bible is, and how evil everyone else's faith is.

Kamo7 wrote:
It is continually discovering how unimaginably complex life really is.

That means there's a process making it more complex. This process is called "evolution".

It does not have to have a mind, superpowers, a desire to be worshiped, or a crush on you in order to make sense.

Kamo7 wrote:
Thus continually making the statisticall probabilities of evolution, via random chance, more and more preposterous.

For that matter, you should try learning about statistics. Evolution is not life happening due to "random chance". That's magic. It's what you believe in.

Evolution is not random, as it's an expression of natural laws. It's no more random than gravity, sunlight, or combustion, just not as well understood.

Religion encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shalt not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

-Chapterhouse: Dune

***NOTE: All references to any God, gods, or other metaphysical concepts are hypothetical in nature and do not imply belief in said deities unless specifically indicated. These statements do not represent the opinion of the poster, his family, friends, other posters, EZboard, or the dark satanic masters that possess him and are secretly pulling his strings. All information copyright 2008 Big Faceless Corp.

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