JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

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Posts: 2348

09/02/05 12:26:59

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This is one of the strangest beliefs that you'll hear at the Kingdom Hall. Where does it come from, you ask? Why from the bible, of course! Here's how.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the bible says Jesus will return to earth with "the voice of the archangel." And Jude 9 talks about "Michael the Archangel." Now these are the only two times that the bible mentions "archangel". Therefore, Jesus must be the Archangel Michael.

Can't argue with that, now can you?

According to the JWs, you can. The man (a ministerial servant) who lead my Bible study did not accept Jesus was Michael, and was told that it was not considered important enough to affect his standing in the community. He later became an elder.

However, Michael and Jesus have a couple of other things in common. Michael is in charge of God's armies (Rev. 12:7); the chief prince of Daniel's people, as opposed to Persia or Greece (Dan. 10:13,21), and he will stand up in a time of trouble to deliver the people, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame (Dan 12:1-2). So, there is some resemblence in terms of what they do.

This is the last entry from the "Interpretations" list. HOpe you all enjoyed them.

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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DE438

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#1

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Posts: 5

11/07/05 09:56:15

Try Daniel 12:1- "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.."

"And at that time shall Jesus stand up, " Jesus has been sitting down in God's throne (Psalm 110:1) until the "Times of Restitution" begin. (Acts 3:21)

"the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people;" Only anointed Jesus is the great prince (chief) who will stand up for the children of Daniel's people. The Messiah.
(Revelation 19:11-16) Israel has survived five wars that she should have lost if, the Lord Jesus Christ had not been with her.

"and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time;"
In 1874 the "time" of trouble began, a "time" is 360 years; 1874 plus 360 = 2234AD, about October 1st, the "Time of Trouble" ends. The nations are down in the dust except for Israel, Satan is bound in the Pit. Christ's Kingdom has begun operation in the meditorial stage, the sinners will be brought back to life for judgments. (Acts 17:31, 24:15)(John 5:25-29) The new Jerusalem has returned to earth, the New Covenant will be placed in effect.

"and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.."
The resurrection of Daniel's people takes place then, Israel will be the first to receive their dead back tolife because they are to be used as the nation thru which Christ will bless all other nations.(Isaiah 60:11) Other nations will send envoys to Jerusalem to learn what must be done back home to fit in with the Kingdom of Christ. For the next 640 years the Kingdom will resurrect, heal, help, and judge the progress of the sinners in righteousness. Those who are incorridgible will die the second death.( Isaiah 60:12) Each man, if he tries to obey, will have a hundred years to make his perfection.(Isaiah 65:20)

I would say that the recognition of Jesus as being Michael is very significant. However, Michael in Revelation 12 is a reference to the Pope not Jesus.

Rev. 12:5- "And she brought forth a manchild" This was the birth of the Papacy in 539AD. Papacy was caught up to God (meaning the Emperor of the Roman Empire)
(6) the woman, (meaning the true church) fled into the wilderness (isolation from the nominal church) 1260 years, 539 to 1799AD.
(7) War in heaven (the ecclesiastical heaven down here on earth) Michael (the Pope) and his angels (Popes officials) against the dragon (civil power of Roman Empire in Constantinople) and his angels (Dragons angels or agents)
(9)The Papacy won, the dragon was cast down as Pontifex Maximus, emperor no longer to be worshipped as a Divine being. The religous part of society belongs to the Pope. Thereafter, the dragon persecuted the woman (true believers) (13)
(15) Serpent cast out water (truth) King James issued a license to publish the Bible in 1799AD. Bible floods the world, Satan cannot pick out the true believers because the world at large has taken up the Bible.(16)
(17) Dragon (civil power) still pursues the woman (true believer) and her seed, (Bible Students) even now. 2005AD.

DE438 Psalm 50:5

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Keith and Company

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#2

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Posts: 4175

11/07/05 10:34:53

Quote:
Try Daniel 12:1- "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.."

"And at that time shall Jesus stand up, " Jesus has been sitting down in God's throne (Psalm 110:1) until the "Times of Restitution" begin. (Acts 3:21)

Two people stand up.
If the end of the world is coming, you'd figure all the heavy hitters'd get off their asses and ready their weaponry.

When they call BattleStations on the boat, the CO and the COW both go to control. Don't read the Watch Quarter and Station bill as saying the CO and the COW are the same person.

Got anything that actually says 'Jesus is Michael' rather than implies? Infers? Supports the fantasy?
No. Instead:

Quote:
However, Michael in Revelation 12 is a reference to the Pope not Jesus.

So, the identity of Michael is flexible? Where's the scorecard?

Keiths Place

Keith's Stuff

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KathrynRuth

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#3

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Posts: 4

11/07/05 12:42:18

I have never been a JW myself, so I may not understand exactly where you are all coming from in some of these discussions. But maybe this portion below from the New Testament will help?
Note:
Christ means "anointed"; also Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God.
Michael can't say that right?
By the way, I do believe that Christ appeared in the Old Testament but I don't believe that supports an idea that He is any other than He says He is; ie. God in the flesh.

Mathew 16
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

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One Brow

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#4

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Posts: 2348

11/07/05 13:30:59

Quote:
Christ means "anointed"; also Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God.
Michael can't say that right?

All the angels are the sons of God (for example, Gen 6, Job 1), including Michael.

Quote:
By the way, I do believe that Christ appeared in the Old Testament but I don't believe that supports an idea that He is any other than He says He is; ie. God in the flesh.

Jesus never refers to himself this way. Further, the two quotes you provided only claim son of God and came in the flesh, neither of which makes Jesus into God.

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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Yark Hutprancer

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#5

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Posts: 4025

11/07/05 14:21:51

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According to the JWs, you can. The man (a ministerial servant) who lead my Bible study did not accept Jesus was Michael, and was told that it was not considered important enough to affect his standing in the community. He later became an elder.

I have very little respect for a Christian sect (or any organiztion) that allows such leeway with the truth.

Can you be a JW if you believe that Jesus was Hitler?

I'm still tryin to figure out why you are so respectful of this sect.

"...the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the
mean and stupid God you make him out to be." - Lt. Scheisskopf's wife, from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller

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One Brow

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#6

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Posts: 2348

11/07/05 15:48:26

Quote:
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According to the JWs, you can. The man (a ministerial servant) who lead my Bible study did not accept Jesus was Michael, and was told that it was not considered important enough to affect his standing in the community. He later became an elder.
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I have very little respect for a Christian sect (or any organiztion) that allows such leeway with the truth.

You would have more respect for them if they made arbitrary decisions on matters they do not consider important? I don't think they could take a position that would get respect from you.

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Can you be a JW if you believe that Jesus was Hitler?

No. Goebbles, maybe.

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I'm still tryin to figure out why you are so respectful of this sect.

I don't respect them any more than Catholics, Lutherans, or Mormons, nor any less.

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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Yark Hutprancer

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#7

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Posts: 4025

11/07/05 16:43:46

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You would have more respect for them if they made arbitrary decisions on matters they do not consider important? I don't think they could take a position that would get respect from you.

I would respect them if they admitted that the idea that Jesus was the arch angel Michael is not clearly spelled out anywhere in the bible and that they really don't know who Jesus was, if he existed. I would respect them if they stopped clinging to senseless ancient beliefs. I would respect them if they realized that they are only one sect out of hundreds or thousands who arrogantly believe that their subjective interpretation of the bible is the correct one. I would respect them if they stopped selling their false beliefs door-to-door. Finally, I would respect them if their primary goal was TRUTH, not the maintenance of an organization that has consistently demonstrated its own folly.

Quote:
I don't respect them any more than Catholics, Lutherans, or Mormons, nor any less.

I have little respect for all of those organizations. How much do you have?

"...the God I don't believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He's not the
mean and stupid God you make him out to be." - Lt. Scheisskopf's wife, from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller

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One Brow

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#8

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Posts: 2348

11/07/05 20:39:30

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I would respect them if they admitted that the idea that Jesus was the arch angel Michael is not clearly spelled out anywhere in the bible

That's pretty much their teaching.

Quote:
and that they really don't know who Jesus was, if he existed. I would respect them if they stopped clinging to senseless ancient beliefs. I would respect them if they realized that they are only one sect out of hundreds or thousands who arrogantly believe that their subjective interpretation of the bible is the correct one. I would respect them if they stopped selling their false beliefs door-to-door. Finally, I would respect them if their primary goal was TRUTH, not the maintenance of an organization that has consistently demonstrated its own folly.

1 out of 7 isn't bad.

Quote:
I have little respect for all of those organizations. How much do you have?

I respect their right to exist, to not be subject to my decisions, and to be liked/disliked for what they are, as opposed to what they are not.

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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Keith and Company

Re: Goebbels, maybe.

#9

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Posts: 4175

11/08/05 06:10:32

"Our fat Herr, who art in Heaven...."

Hmm. Possibilities.

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NobleSavage1

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#10

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Posts: 3766

11/08/05 07:52:00

Quote:
I respect their right to exist, to not be subject to my decisions, and to be liked/disliked for what they are, as opposed to what they are not.

I don't respect any cult that brainwashes its members or seeks to limit their use of reason to keep them sheepish followers. I don't respect any cult that seeks to change our society to their liking and thereby impose their will upon my life. I don't respect any cult that limits the human potential and brings stagnation to our development, sociologically and technologially.

They have a right to exist just like people have a right to be stupid but I don't have to respect them for it and will be happy to see these movements die out. The sooner, the better.

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"The individual human mind (is holy to me). In a child's power to master the multiplication table there is more sanctity than in all your shouted amens and holy-holies and hosannas. An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral and the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks turned to snakes and the parting of the waters."
-Henry Drummond, character in "Inherit the Wind"

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Deism: Where Reason and Spirituality Meet

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One Brow

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#11

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Posts: 2348

11/08/05 08:57:29

Quote:
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I respect their right to exist, to not be subject to my decisions, and to be liked/disliked for what they are, as opposed to what they are not.
--------------------
I don't respect any cult that ...

I think we might be using two different meanings of "respect".

Quote:
... brainwashes its members or seeks to limit their use of reason to keep them sheepish followers.

None of the four do that, AFAICT.

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I don't respect any cult that seeks to change our society to their liking and thereby impose their will upon my life.

That could describe Catholics, Lutherans, and Mormons.

Quote:
I don't respect any cult that limits the human potential and brings stagnation to our development, sociologically and technologially.

I can appreciate that charge being leveled against Catholics and JWs.

Quote:
They have a right to exist just like people have a right to be stupid but I don't have to respect them for it and will be happy to see these movements die out. The sooner, the better.

The flaw is in human nature. It's like a hydra, kill off one head and two more will replace it. I don't expect it to change for a couple of million years.

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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NobleSavage1

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#12

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Posts: 3766

11/08/05 09:41:49

Quote:
The flaw is in human nature. It's like a hydra, kill off one head and two more will replace it. I don't expect it to change for a couple of million years.

More like evolution. Just as we've progressed biologically, so to I believe we are sociologially.

Perhaps Christianity was a step forward in our development compared to what came before it, in the sense that it tried to transcend racial and tribal boundaries to be inclusive of all as "God's children". I'd argue that it's half-life was Copernicus' discovery that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth. It's time for a more evolved spirituality. We've outgrown Jesus.

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"The individual human mind (is holy to me). In a child's power to master the multiplication table there is more sanctity than in all your shouted amens and holy-holies and hosannas. An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral and the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks turned to snakes and the parting of the waters."
-Henry Drummond, character in "Inherit the Wind"

My Personal Webpage

Deism: Where Reason and Spirituality Meet

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One Brow

Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael

#13

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Posts: 2348

11/08/05 10:21:37

Quote:
More like evolution. Just as we've progressed biologically, so to I believe we are sociologially.

At roughly the same timescale.

Quote:
It's time for a more evolved spirituality. We've outgrown Jesus.

I don't think replacing Jesus with est will really be a step forward.

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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NobleSavage1

What's est?

#14

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Posts: 3766

11/08/05 10:24:09

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"The individual human mind (is holy to me). In a child's power to master the multiplication table there is more sanctity than in all your shouted amens and holy-holies and hosannas. An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral and the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks turned to snakes and the parting of the waters."
-Henry Drummond, character in "Inherit the Wind"

My Personal Webpage

Deism: Where Reason and Spirituality Meet

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One Brow

Proof that you dont need religion to think religiously

#15

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Posts: 2348

11/08/05 10:30:27

A starting point from wikipedia

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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NobleSavage1

Re: Proof that you dont need religion to think religiously

#16

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Posts: 3766

11/08/05 11:29:36

So when did I advocate this? est seems more like new age style transcendenalism.

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"The individual human mind (is holy to me). In a child's power to master the multiplication table there is more sanctity than in all your shouted amens and holy-holies and hosannas. An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral and the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks turned to snakes and the parting of the waters."
-Henry Drummond, character in "Inherit the Wind"

My Personal Webpage

Deism: Where Reason and Spirituality Meet

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Keith and Company

EST? That's a trip on the wayback machine...

#17

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Posts: 4175

11/08/05 11:44:53

but not New Age. Well, sort of. New Age in the large allows the individual to take spirituality whereever they find it. You wanna be a catholic that casts Tarot and believes the Archangel Michael sends you prophetic dreams? It's all good.

EST was a product of the 70's. The main thrust of all those self awareness, self centered, self abusing personal growth programs was 'I'm okay, you're on your own.' Kind of a New Age Prequel.

Disco, mood rings, pyramid power and rolfing. Bleh.

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One Brow

Re: Proof that you dont need religion to think religiously

#18

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Posts: 2348

11/08/05 12:44:03

Quote:
So when did I advocate this?

You have not, to my recollection. I offered it as an example that people will create pseudo-religious organizations when they can't advocate religious ones.

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"Come now, and let us reason together"

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JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	09/02/05 12:26:59	One Brow
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 09:56:15	DE438
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 10:34:53	Keith and Company
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 12:42:18	KathrynRuth
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 13:30:59	One Brow
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 14:21:51	Yark Hutprancer
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 15:48:26	One Brow
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 16:43:46	Yark Hutprancer
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/07/05 20:39:30	One Brow
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/08/05 07:52:00	NobleSavage1
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/08/05 08:57:29	One Brow
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/08/05 09:41:49	NobleSavage1
Re: JWs: Jesus is the Archangel Michael	11/08/05 10:21:37	One Brow
What's est?	11/08/05 10:24:09	NobleSavage1
Proof that you dont need religion to think religiously	11/08/05 10:30:27	One Brow
Re: Proof that you dont need religion to think religiously	11/08/05 11:29:36	NobleSavage1
EST? That's a trip on the wayback machine...	11/08/05 11:44:53	Keith and Company
Re: Proof that you dont need religion to think religiously	11/08/05 12:44:03	One Brow
Re: Goebbels, maybe.	11/08/05 06:10:32	Keith and Company

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