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There's an important difference. Most Christians are Christians because they were brought up that way. It's not likely that they would seriously question their beliefs. By the same token, 2000 years ago most Jews were Jews because they were brought up that way. They'd also have the inclination not to question their beliefs. Thus it would be difficult to convert them to Christianity. And we see this historically.... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Franciscan Monkey) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11552 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:06:35 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11554/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11554

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It is quite evident to me that the gospels are presenting Jesus as an actual historical figure. Matthew and Luke contain extensive genealogies. Luke claimed that his purpose was to write an accurate account of Jesus in Luke 1:1-4, and in Acts 1:1-3 he stated that there were "proofs" that Jesus was alive. All of the gospels placed historical, if sometimes contradictory, markers throughout the narratives. John... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Diskeyezed) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11554 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:18:43 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11551/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11551

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I still think there might be some grains of truth in there.

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Comparable to the grains of truth in tabloids?

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"As for the... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Diskeyezed) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11551 Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:09:43 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11550/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11550 Quote:

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Either way, the Gospels are rendered false.

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I agree, though I still think there might be some grains of truth in there.

If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be born that way.

]]> feeds@yuku.com (Rev Etherman) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11550 Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:32:34 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11549/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11549
My position is this: If the Gospels were originally intended as actual history, then the fact is that the authors took OT passages out of context to fabricate prophetic fulfillments, and Waterrock's arguments don't hold up, since the term used is "fulfilled." On the other... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Diskeyezed) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11549 Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:17:08 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11548/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11548 The target audience of the gospel writers was not the educated Jewish religious leaders, but the common man. Most of these people would not have been well-versed in the OT, and wouldn't have been able to cross-reference the passages easily.

It would have been easy enough to ask a Rabbi.

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Even today, Christian preachers, teachers, and authors are proclaiming that Jesus fulfilled specific predictive prophecies even though... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Rev Etherman) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11548 Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:33:35 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11547/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11547
Notice that Matthew, by far the biggest offender of the writers in terms of falsely connecting supposed events in Jesus' life to prophecy, at times omitted where the original passage was found, or even attributed the prophecy to another OT prophet.... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Franciscan Monkey) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11547 Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:33:40 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11546/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11546 Quote:

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Matthew also claims fulfillment of predictive prophecies, even if the OT authors didn't intend them to be predictive prophecies, as evidenced by his use of "to fulfill" or similar phrases.

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And here a problem arises. If the Gospel writers were writing to Jewish audiences then why would they choose passages that Jews would realize weren't predictive prophecies?

If God wanted us to be Atheists we'd be... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Rev Etherman) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11546 Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:13:16 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11545/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11545
It is quite evident to me that the gospels are presenting Jesus as an actual historical figure. Matthew and Luke contain extensive genealogies. Luke claimed that his purpose was to write an accurate account of Jesus in Luke 1:1-4, and in Acts 1:1-3 he stated that there were... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Franciscan Monkey) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11545 Mon, 09 Jan 2006 08:42:51 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11544/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11544 feeds@yuku.com (Rev Etherman) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11544 Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:57:07 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/reply/11543/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html#reply-11543
Respectfully,
Franciscan Monkey ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Franciscan Monkey) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/sreply/11543 Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:18:14 GMT http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/topic/1350/t/Matthew-2-15-and-Hosea-11-1.html
A: Yes, Hosea 11:1 is about Israel, and Matthew would affirm that. Perhaps if people knew their Old Testament better, and didnt try to make predictive fulfillments out of typological fulfillments, Matthews statements about fulfillments like this one would not appear problematic.

Matthew took for granted that... ]]> feeds@yuku.com (Waterrock) http://sabdiscussionboard.yuku.com/topic/1350 Mon, 08 Aug 2005 23:58:37 GMT